The NZ/SA Rivalry, how fierce is it?

[boyo]

I usually do, why?

Just curious.

 

[The Red Baron]

I think that in earlier times the makeup of the NZ and SA teams was similar ie. Farmers,carpenters, blue collar workers made up a good part of the touring party so off field socializing was pretty relaxed. I think it has only been in recent years that the Wallabies have had a beer with the All Blacks in the dressing rooms post game. I note now that the players seem to be on pretty good terms after the final whistle,just as it should be. It's only the supporters who keep slugging it out.

I think you have hit on a core aspect of the rivalry here. Although speaking as an outsider, I have noticed through the comments (and the brilliant docos and links people have posted - thanks PaarlBok and Chiefton ) that similar backgrounds really formed strong bonds off the field and intense struggles on it. As someone alluded to before, it was a mutual respect borne out of similarity - that transcended national boundaries.

I also think Bullrush raises an excellent point with regards to Kiwis, in that the rivalry is not so much based on generational lines, but physicality. However, it would be interesting to note the demographic that place a higher importance on the Bledisloe rivalry than the SA rivalry. There might be both age and physical aspects at play, which is something worth exploring.

Judging from what I have read here so far, it seems that South Africa develops their rugby structures with the goal of beating the All Blacks. I think the World Cup in recent times has become a real talisman, but beating the All Blacks still seems the pinnacle for many South Africans.

That's my take on it so far anyway! Feel free to tell me I'm totally wrong though!

 

[Blue]

Only partially true. Rugby has always cut accross the "class" system (a complicated concept in SA) in South Africa.

Played in private schools and public schools in every country town.

Club teams would often have doctors running next to carpenters.

For example kids in Pretoria who lived on the more wealthy side of town played for the Police club, one of the biggest in the area.

I played for Harlequins and we had kids from every walk of life. But when we toured the country kids wanted to kill us

 

[PaarlBok]

I dont think the make up is so similiar. Know Schalkie Burger maybe very agrressive on the field but you wont get a better person off the field. Thats the way our laaities is coached from early age. Give it your best shot between the lines but once its finished, shake hands and forget about the war and have a laugh about it. Schalkie learned that values from his dad who was probably more agressive then himself on the field but he taught him the old Springbok rugby values of sportmanship and friendship. Thats probably the best part of the sport of rugby.

 

[The Red Baron]

Never liked Justin Marshall as a player. I once heard someone say that it's no coincidence that the lowest time All Black history coincided with Marshall's career!!

Just being cheeky here, but I was going back over the thread and saw that Justin Marshall was the halfback for the Pretoria test in 1996.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The NZ/SAF 1956 series seems to be a very important series in terms of the relationship between the two belligerents. The Saffer strength/intimidation in the front row was such that NZ apparently recruited their heavyweight boxing champion to win the fight and take his opponents minds of rugby.

Shortly after this NZ was not allowed to send their maori players on tour to the republic. This just amped up the pressure between the two because NZ don't seem to have an issue with skin colour, never have never will. The closeness of the series and the difficulty to win away from home (for both teams)in the 60's and 70's just reinforced the pre-existing grievances - Kiwis are rucking good thugs, and Saffers are just hardarses who hate to lose at home. Both wanted to win away from home, but there was always some Suzie the Waitress like moment that seemed to rob the visiting team from the prized away series victory.

The politics over colour, and trying to separate sport from politics (Yeah Right, The Man in the Moon is made of cheese as well) have been extra factors that both sides have used to ginger up the importance of beating the other mob.

My Mother in Law says you only hate those you love. The rivalry between NZ and SAF is based around how hard it is to beat the other mob, and a respect that flows from that when the rare victories come.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I dont think the make up is so similiar. Know Schalkie Burger maybe very agrressive on the field but you wont get a better person off the field. Thats the way our laaities is coached from early age. Give it your best shot between the lines but once its finished, shake hands and forget about the war and have a laugh about it. Schalkie learned that values from his dad who was probably more agressive then himself on the field but he taught him the old Springbok rugby values of sportmanship and friendship. Thats probably the best part of the sport of rugby.

I think that's the rugby culture the world over Paarl and a good thing it is too. Some of the finest people I've met have had a mutual love of our great game.

This is cracking thread, BTW. Loving it.

 

[Rassie]

Rugby union in the amateur days was always only for the middle to elite classes. Everywhere. Consider the increase of Moari players in the professional era than in the amateur era where most played league. In 1936 he Kiwi team had only 1 Moari in it. Most could not afford 3 months away from home without compensation.

Springbok-All Black rugby was full of tradition and lore. For us it was the greatest of international rivalries, and during World War Two whenever South African and New Zealand troops encountered each other, whether in a Cairo street or a London pub, they would scrum down on the spot

 

[Dan54]

Rassie, I not sure where you got that Maori's played league in amateur days, or that it was played by middle class, when I grew up everyone played it, bar none and still do in NZ,before the 80s if you looked at NZ league team, I wiould doubt there were more than 1 or 2 maoris in that, as league was mainly played in West Coast of SI by the miners, and in Auckland. Colin Meads always laughed ,that like4 SA and Wales a NZ team used to have everyone in it, there were quite often AB front rows with mixes like a farmer,meatworker and a lawyer (can't remember when it was.
and HJ I don't think Maoris were ever allowed to tour SA, I know that is why George Nepia probably greatest of all fullbacks didn't tour SA.

 

[Bon]

The 56 All Black side brought in Kevin Skinner, who had been a heavyweight boxer, to the front row to even things up a tad after Tiny White caught a stray fist in the preceding test and was knocked out cold. Rassie, as Dan said everyone was introduced to rugby from day one at all schools. I still remember as a five year old being stood in a circle with others of my age catching rugby balls. There were no other winter team sports to speak of, a very small minority played hockey,and a few expatriate poms played a bit of soccer. We had interschool competitions which encompassed all schools,public and private from the age of six right up through the grades.
During the amateur era players without the means to tour were generally looked after financially.NZ would have been battling to send a team away otherwise.

 

[Dan54]

Yep Bon, remember Waitete club members all just hekped run Meads farm when he with ABs, always happened, the players club would run raffles etc, to make sure player could tour, and that was for provincial as well as international players.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

My granddad's troopship docked at Cape Town on the way home from WW1 & a Saffa colonel supposedly came aboard to challenge the kiwis to a rugby match. As he & the kiwi CO were parting the Staffa spotted a group of Maori & said something like "you'll leave your blacks aboard ship won't you" to which our bloke replied along the lines of "we don't have blacks, we all go ashore or we all stay aboard". The ship was promptly quarantined due to the Spanish flu epidemic... I'd like to think the story is true as it's a whole lot better than the shameful kowtowing in 1928, 1949 & 1960... took us until 1967 to grow the balls to say "no Maori no tour" & even then we went back in 1970 with "honorary whites" & didn't really send a truly representative team until 1976... who got ripped off by absolutely the worst refs in history.
I'm old enough to remember '76, '81 & '85, I grew up with the legend of Kevin Skinner & the story of my parents & older brothers driving 10 hours to Christchurch for the 1965 Test, I was gutted when they beat us in the '95 RWC Final, loved it when we finally beat them at home in '96 (with a Waiopehu old boy in the side, no less), loved it even more when we put 50 on them at Eden Park in '97... but now the monkey's off our back & the team I most enjoy watching the AB beat is the one they're playing, the 'boks just aren't that big of a deal any more & here's why:
NZ v SA pre-1991 won 15 lost 20 drew 2 win ratio 43% easily our worst v anyone
NZ v SA post-1991 won 33 lost 14 drawn 1 win ratio 70% still lower than our historical average but better than v Australia - 68% over the same period.
Still have total respect for SA as a rugby nation, even if I wish they'd play more actual rugby but these days I can't get as fired up for a 'boks game as for one against the French (hate those bastards lol) or English (only natural to hate 'em innit).

 

[Rassie]

I just got a couple of questions. Why did Arhur Ash get a Visa and went around SA have a time of his life while the Moari's were not allowed? In the 1920's there were no border control basically Dan. Other mystery is what Moari players were not allowed since there were only playing for NZ by 1936. Dan were you present and saw what was happening around the 1920's to 50's?

This bloke was

Nepia (1936) stated that, ―among the lovers of the game and among my own people, the Māoris, there was talk of discrimination.‖158 At the time of his comments S.T Reid was the only Māori player in the All Blacks squad. Nepia (1936) felt that there were other Māori players that were superior to those chosen in that particular squad and openly spoke out against discrimination stating that:
―Reid is our only representative. He is worth his place in any international side. But so, is Charlie Smith, the brilliant Maori three-quarter, now playing with me in the Streatham and Mitcham Rugby League Club. He was considered an automatic choice. So was Jack Macdonald, who was vice-captain of the Maori [rugby union] team which toured Australia this year.

Rugby union had been created on the morals and virtues of the English school system and the physical ideals of muscular Christianity. In New Zealand, threats of a loss of visits by RFU teams influenced the NZRU to take a firm stance against rugby league and suggestions of compensation to players. While not professional in the sense of contemporary sport, that is multi-million dollar contracts and full time training, the offer by rugby league of compensation for work missed and remuneration for touring was considered to breach rugby union‘s amateur stance. This amateur stance would become the key to rugby union‘s exclusivity in New Zealand. Anything not considered ‗amateur‘ was not to be associated with the development of rugby union.

In 1936 George Nepia provided reasons why, in his opinion, he believed rugby union was losing, and would continue to lose, Māori players to rugby league. One of the explanations that he gave was around discrimination in rugby union. Nepia had made the decision to switch from rugby union to play rugby league the previous year. The reasons given by Nepia for his departure from rugby union were a tough financial period for him and his family, and rugby league as a professional sport provided more fiscal opportunities than rugby union

So no it was not any government that kept rugby only to a few elite when it comes to playing for the highest honor that is your national team. How would a poor person look after a family being 3 months away from home and consider the heritage and that they believe they must take care of their elders.

If you do not believe me check how NZ benefited. Compare the number of Moari and Pacific Islanders in professional era to the amateur era. Not many.

Then Dan was Rhodesia also under apartheid? NZ played them as well. Did they said those players can't play as well?

In 1949 SA made the same laws that Australia and the USA did. That was banning any party affiliated with communist activity or links. Was also around the time the Cold war started. Most laws were there by 1919 in SA and was put there by the British after from some help of the Kiwi's and Aussies destroyed all their farms and killed 27000 of their woman and children. Then years later they had a strike and were bombed by the air force and mines open where black labor were use because they could be payed less. No border control, job at mines and discovery of gold, daimonds and other metals you can see why from 1908 the African population went from 4 million to 30 million. Most of them from other parts of Africa. Were they kicked out? No like I mentioned the SA build them all that stuff I mentioned earlier.

Do the USA do that for Mexicans? Did any country did that for foreigners? No they did not. SA history is very complicated and not all was like reported. You need to go look around the world what happened and consider what happened.

SA thrashed the Moari's 36-0 in 56 I think. I can assure you that wasn't the best Moari team as their best players were earning money for playing at league.

You must also remember but happened in NZ in the 70's when they slacked border control? They later went and knocked doors down of Islanders and deported them. The difference is SA did not do that. They gave them basic services and everything. There were the Zulu tribes and Xhosa's originally from SA. They scattered to Zimbabwe and if you look you will find that the Zulus which is now the majority still lives where they lived ages ago and so the Xhosa's.

You will find the 7 languages are situated where the mine areas are and is close to the borders. The Tswana's got Botswana filled with diamonds wrecked by the British and were helped by a SA government to one of the best economies in the world. People thought and according to media that non white people where use rugs or food pedestals etc etc were allowed no land and could not have businesses. But I suggest you Google Orlando Pirates, Kaizer Chiefs, Jomo Cosmos.

Like in NZ rugby was a amateur sport in SA and there were no compensation. They could not go to school or most could not because they were threatened and by the no education before liberation campaign. Which meant no rugby and no better jobs. A lot of them chose football which was professional. Imagine raking in big lumps of cash and paying almost no taxes at all? Oh yeah people forget to mention white people payed way higher taxes and from that money schools and other things were build.

I feel sorry for Boertjies like Paarl. Everyone just blamed everything on them and created a image of them being biggest racist etc etc. In fact they took the country back in 1948 from British control basically and after almost 50 years of segregation laws the damage was already done and the groups divided. Just look closely you will note SA from that period relaxed more laws of apartheid than creating. All law basically created was ones USA got today for anti terrorism. Which one can't find fault at as innocent people got bombed coincidently the same period SA withdrew from the commonwealth.

SA were never about Apartheid it was cause of its great wealth under it. Bophuthatswana did not want to incorporate with SA in 94 and got burned down to the ground almost people killed and forced to be part of SA. You know why. Just google what is under it.

 

[ACR]

I can speak as part if this "younger generation". I'm 25. One of my first rugby memories is watching the world cup in '95 when I was 7. I remember all the excitement as the AB's progressed through to the final. A lot of it centered around Jonah Lomu.

I remember in the days before the final there was a piece on Jonah on the tele and it was with one of his young cousins or something, it was based around "how do you stop Jonah?" The little kid went on to 'tackle' Jonah and say "you go around the legs". I was dismayed that we were letting out the secret of how to stop him just days before the final.

I remember going to my dad's mate place at midnight to watch this bloody final, seeing Jeff Wilson puke on the sideline, Jonah getting wrapped up (why did we tell them!!), the drop kicks. I also distinctly remember the one time Jonah got the ball in acres of space and the play getting called back for a forward pass. Never!

I was thoroughly distraught as a seven year old, thus South Africa became and remains the #1 enemy. If the Wallabies maybe hold the cup for any more than two years they become temporary holders of the mantle but it will always revert back to SA.

I can accept losing to SA (in SA) but not the Wallabies.

 

[fairplay]

Great thread.

Is it fair to say that they are the only two SH Nations on the planet where Rugby Union has traditionally been the number 1 sport.

It never has been in Oz and never will be.

 

[Bon]

Rassie, the 56 Maori side were the best union team NZ could field on the day,the selectors could do no more than that I believe. Re knocking down doors to send islanders home. Those in question were illegal immigrants. Not all island nations have NZ citizenship,so overstayers were and are still, bundled off home. As for less Maori players, percentage of population wise I'd doubt that. And let's not forget that many polynesian players today are of island heritage,Tonga,Samoa ,Rarotonga and other islands so strictly speaking are not Maori. The wave of pacifica migration began in the fifties and continues to this day. We simply have a much higher percentage of polynesian people today than we did prior to WW11. And it's still growing.

 

[Bullrush]

Speaking as a NZer of Samoan descent (my father moved to NZ in the '50's), the Dawn Raids are a shameful part of NZ history. These were condemned or criticised by almost every sphere of NZ society including the police who were conducting them. It was nothing short of racial profiling.

 

[Dam0]

I wonder if we really need to veer into the racial aspects of the history. I think fault can be found on all sides. It is my experience that whenever race and rugby history is discussed it often degenerates far off course and ends up dominating the subject matter.

I think it would be a shame if this were to happen in this thread.

 

[terry j]

yes, but equally to some of us the history is 'new' so of interest.

I do get your apprehension tho.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Speaking as a NZer of Samoan descent (my father moved to NZ in the '50's), the Dawn Raids are a shameful part of NZ history. These were condemned or criticised by almost every sphere of NZ society including the police who were conducting them. It was nothing short of racial profiling.

Shades of the shameless treatment handed out to our "boat people" (now and in previous times - vietnamese boat people).

They are humans.