The League Media

[Hugh Jarse]

This fixation on " speeding things up" always amuses me. American Football is slow by any measure, yet it is amazingly popular.
How do we explain that?

Same for the last 2 minutes in a Bubbleball game.

With all the bloody timeouts and stopping of the clock when the ball goes out of play, and fartarsing around for penalty shots when the team foul count limit is achieved, 2 minutes of game time can take about 15 minutes to happen,

 

[Omar Comin']

This fixation on " speeding things up" always amuses me. American Football is slow by any measure, yet it is amazingly popular.

How do we explain that?

Cultural differences. And in my experience Americans always say that American Football is a very fast game. They refer to the speed of movement when play happens when they talk about the speed of a sport.

I think it's also worth noting that American Football coverage is amazing. It is so much better than the coverage of rugby or any other kind of football. They make use of their dead time so much better with analysis of plays, match ups, game stats etc.

 

[mxyzptlk]

This fixation on " speeding things up" always amuses me. American Football is slow by any measure, yet it is amazingly popular.


How do we explain that?

I'm from the States, and watching rugby ruined me for football. So. Damn. Slow.

There was a study done a couple years ago, and in a full NFL game, you only get something like 11 minutes of total action. The rest is standing around or getting set. Plus all the commercials. And the time-outs. And the television time-outs.

Last year a Packer game started at the same time as a Leinster game I was watching. I checked in on the Packer game at halftime, and they had just gotten into the second quarter. The Leinster game ended, and the Packer game was getting into the third quarter. I started watching another rugby game, and between all the time-outs and commercials, the Packer game was just ending when the other rugby game reached halftime.

Nobody watches American football for the football anymore. They watch football to socialize.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I think it's also worth noting that American Football coverage is amazing. It is so much better than the coverage of rugby or any other kind of football. They make use of their dead time so much better with analysis of plays, match ups, game stats etc.

Well yeah -- there's a lot of dead time to fill, and they can't spend it all going over currently pending domestic battery charges.

As an American, I'd say gridiron is explosive, but not necessarily fast -- the tempo of the game isn't fast, unless someone is playing a hurry-up offense. You'll never really get flowing gridiron, just the occasional well-run play. Compared to other American team sports, the only one that's slower is baseball.

I'd be interested to find out how many Aussie league fans are also gridiron fans, because gridiron is basically a series a set-piece plays spread out over about 4 hours. Given what they say they dislike in rugby, gridiron would seem to be anathema.

 

[mxyzptlk]

The two biggest issues are:-
- The breaks in play - line outs scrums etc etc taking to long to get going.
- Any team that involves a game plan which just wants to get possession in penalty goal range then roll around on the grass until they can get a penalty.


Take away the rugby element out of it.

Two points:

First, I'm guessing you don't like American football, because it's all set pieces. Set piece plays can be interesting, and they don't take all that long. Collapsed scrums is one thing, but even then, there's a lot happening in a scrum that league will never understand, and when it goes off well, it's a thing of beauty. Alex Corbisiero was on BT Sport recently showing some of what happens in a scrum, and it's impressive what they manage to do. But set piece plays taking fooooorrreeeevvvveeerrr is the rare exception, not the rule. To claim that suggests you just don't watch much and don't know what you're talking about.

Second, your second point again betrays a lack of familiarity with the game, unless your entire experience is based on old local games played before the professional era. Are you really going to accuse rugby of rolling around in the grass when that's exactly what league players do on every single tackle? Are you really going to accuse rugby of trying to slow the game when that's exactly why the wrestle was brought in to league? Come on -- the Melbourne Storm hired Georges St. Pierre's jiujitsu coach to teach them moves and holds precisely to slow the game down.

One or two passes and a hit-up isn't exactly showing off the "rugby element," especially if everyone then has to back off, get set, writhe around on the grass for a bit, shove someone, get set again, and then sloooowly roll the ball backward with a foot (because they need to make sure everyone's in place to do it all again). I watched Northland play Taranaki right now, and the average time from a tackle/ruck to a pass is 2-3 seconds, and that's being conservative. The only time it goes longer is if there's something happening at the ruck and they're actually competing for the ball. I know you don't watch, but the past two weeks in the Pro 12, Glasgow and Leinster have played more rugby than I've seen in most of the NRL finals.

For what it's worth, I found the pass-tackle count I did on last year's Rabbitohs-Warriors game -- counted the number of passes before each tackle in each set of possession (so if they maintained possession I counted that as one set). This was the game played in Perth, 2013. I initially did this for myself, because I was just curious if the numbers held up to the MEGA EXCITEMENT I was being told rugby league was. If you're looking for a "rugby element," the numbers aren't impressive. I'll put each team's first five sets for each half below. Those first five sets of each half are fairly representative of the rest of the sets for each team for each half.

In the first five sets for the first half, the Rabbitohs managed to string together 0 passes six times (just a run by dummy half) before being tackled, 1 pass twenty times, 2 passes four times, 3 passes once, and got up to 4 passes once. The Warriors had no 0 passes in the first five sets of the first half, got up to 1 pass nineteen times, 2 passes three times, 3 passes two times, never got up to 4 passes but got up to 5 passes once.

In the second half (first five sets), the Rabbitohs had 0 passes twice, 1 pass twenty-four times, 2 passes six times, 3 passes once, and that was it. The Warriors had 0 passes once, 1 pass thirteen times, 2 passes four times, 3 passes four times, 4 passes four times, and that was it.

The Rabbitohs had a total of 65 passes in 65 tackles (first five sets of each half), while the Warriors had a total of 51 passes in 48 tackles. That's about 1 pass per tackle on average and since the only times they were really getting beyond the gain line was when they managed to get off more than one pass, there wasn't much of that going on either. It didn't exactly light the world on fire.

If only they could compete for the ball at the breakdown...

[EDIT: My table just showed up as one long string of numbers, so I'm fixing that. Attached a pdf in the meantime.]

+--------------------------+--+-----------------------------+
|         1st Half         |  |           2nd Half          |
+--------------------------+--+-----------------------------+
|   Rabbitohs   | Warriors |  |   Rabbitohs  |   Warriors   |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       2      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     3    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  | 1 kick ahead |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       0       |          |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       0       |          |  |      pen     |       3      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       3      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       4      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       2      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       2      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     3    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       1      |   turn-over  |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       0       |          |  |     scrum    |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       0      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       2      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       0      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       0       |          |  |              |       3      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |    pen   |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       2       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       4       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       2      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       2      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
| chip kick try |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       0       |          |  |   turn-over  |   knock on   |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       3       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       0       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       2      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |      try     |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     2    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     2    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     2    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       3      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       2      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     5    |  |       2      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |     1    |  |       1      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |       0      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       2       |          |  |       3      |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       2       |    pen   |  |              |       1      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       1       |          |  |              |       2      |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|       2       |          |  |     scrum    | 1 kick touch |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|               |          |  |              |              |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|     0 = 6     |   0 = 0  |  |     0 = 2    |     0 = 1    |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|     1 = 20    |  1 = 19  |  |    1 = 24    |    1 = 13    |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|     2 = 4     |   2 = 3  |  |     2 = 6    |     2 = 4    |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|     3 = 1     |   3 = 2  |  |     3 = 1    |     3 = 4    |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|     4 = 1     |   4 = 0  |  |     4 = 0    |     4 = 4    |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|     5 = 0     |   5 = 1  |  |     5 = 0    |     5 = 0    |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+
|     32/32     |   25/25  |  |     33/33    |     26/23    |
+---------------+----------+--+--------------+--------------+

 

[Pfitzy]

To me, most yank sports are like that though:

BOOM! Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. BOOM!

Perfect for consuming snacks

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Not a fan of the NFL, but love me some ice hockey and baseball. Living in the States a few years ago was great from the point of view of being able to watch as much of those sports as I wanted.

 

[USARugger]

This fixation on " speeding things up" always amuses me. American Football is slow by any measure, yet it is amazingly popular.


How do we explain that?

http://www.nfl.com/redzone

I'm not even kidding, myself and plenty of other people I know would not watch nearly as much NFL without Redzone.

 

[mxyzptlk]

http://www.nfl.com/redzone

I'm not even kidding, myself and plenty of other people I know would not watch nearly as much NFL without Redzone.

It's still strange after watching so much rugby watching football where you don't have to touch the football down in order to score a touchdown.

One thing I was thinking about the other day, something from rugby that you never see in football, but I wonder if it would work: You know how two or three forwards will bind on to each other, maul-like, and one of them has the ball, and they'll drive over the line? Could you do that in football? Have the guard and tackle bind on to each other while the ball-carrier follows them into the end zone or over the line of scrimmage, or in a quarterback sneak the running back binds on to him and helps shove him over the line. Are there any rules against that?

 

[papabear]

Mxy, I don't actually find the game of rugby boring on its own.

Compared to other sports that I like more yes that maybe the case. Compared to sports I like less then rugby, I actually find it exciting.

Oddly enough, rugby for me is the reverse of most other sports, in terms of tv I enjoy the shute shield (lower grades) more then super 15 and the super 15 more then tests. Unless of course some numpty teams are playing.

As for NFL, I enjoy it if its on replay and they cut out all the garbage and just show you play after play. But no I like most people cant stand the amount of stoppages. I am a huge Basketball fan and like mentioned earlier in this thread the lost 2 minutes of an nba game are just friggin annoying, if your team is playing it might add to the excitement a bit but if you are watching neutrals its painful.

Also probably more on topic is the cultural* differences between the two sports. Having the privilege of going to Barker for two years, I appreciate it acutely.

I am not sure if cultural is the right word.

This might also go to why rugby is more popular in NZ then Aus because it doesn't have the same cultural issues.

 

[papabear]

I didn't watch that bunnies warriors game but wasn't that the one played in a torrential downpour??

 

[wamberal]

Papabear, you make a good point about the Shute Shield. One of the very best games of rugby I have seen in the last few years was a reserve grade game!


Eastwood v Gordon, at Milner, a couple of years ago.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I didn't watch that bunnies warriors game but wasn't that the one played in a torrential downpour??

This year's was; my stats were from last year's game.

 

[papabear]

fair enough, I am sorry that your rugby league experience wasn't all that you had cracked it up to be for yourself.

That said the first 5 minutes of a match tends to be more conservative then other times, dare I say it if the match is still live going into the last 5 minutes you will have one team throwing a lot of passes and another team running a bunch of dummy half runs if they are tired and gutless.

 

[terry j]

better watch it papabear, you are starting to come over all warm, fuzzy and reasonable!

 

[mxyzptlk]

Mxy, I don't actually find the game of rugby boring on its own.

Compared to other sports that I like more yes that maybe the case. Compared to sports I like less then rugby, I actually find it exciting.

So... what's your complaint/argument?

 

[mxyzptlk]

fair enough, I am sorry that your rugby league experience wasn't all that you had cracked it up to be for yourself.

That said the first 5 minutes of a match tends to be more conservative then other times, dare I say it if the match is still live going into the last 5 minutes you will have one team throwing a lot of passes and another team running a bunch of dummy half runs if they are tired and gutless.

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, but it wasn't just the first five minutes, it was the first five possessions for each team -- well more than the first five minutes. And that's only what I posted; I have a count for every possession/set of tackles for the entire game.

And that wasn't the extent of my rugby league experience. I've watched plenty of it (I hope my familiarity with the game itself has come across in these comments). I watched Wigan play Huddersfield today. I can appreciate it for what it is, but it's also missing a number of elements that I enjoy in rugby and makes rugby, for me, more entertaining. (And also to my wife, my parents, and everyone else I've introduced the games to here in the States. I honestly thought my dad would prefer league because he's such a big gridiron fan, but that wasn't the case.)

But for the most part, I'd say league has done a good job of honing aspects of the game that rugby doesn't pay as much attention to, principally because league has fewer options in certain areas. Like inside the 20; league is generally sharper at finishing from inside the 20 because they have fewer chances to make their position work (switches, accurate cross-kicks, etc.). That doesn't mean they'll always score more -- league defenses are also more adept at defending against those sorts of of attacks because they have less to do than rugby does in that zone, like worry about rucks and the breakdown.

But despite having four fewer players on the field, league appears more congested and to have less space. I think this is because so much of the game is mainly played within 10 meters on either side of the gain line, so everyone is crammed into that space. Without the kicking option (except on 5th tackle), league can't exploit space in the same way as a rugby box kick that can either turn the defense around or drop it near enough to give the forwards a chance to break free of the quagmire and create chances for a turnover. League feels more east-west except on 5th tackle, while rugby feels more north-south and east-west no matter the tackle count.

I'm thinking of doing a similar stats count for a rugby game, but I'm not sure how apt it would be. In league, only 2-3 people are involved in the tackle while everyone else backs off and resets, which gives the dummy half more time/space to set up the next phase. In rugby, the defense doesn't have to get as far back and a lot more than 2 people get involved in the ruck. Which is to say 1 pass to a tackle in league means something different than 1 pass to a tackle in rugby -- ostensibly, the league players have more time/space to get something more than 1 pass off, while the rugby scrum half is almost always under pressure.

I'm also not sure which competition would be a good parallel to the NRL. I started doing a stats count of the Hawke's Bay - Otago Ranfurly Shield game, but that's the second division of a third-tier competition, not the premier competition of their game. (It's also a thumping.) But I don't think it'd be Super Rugby, because that's an international competition, and the NRL isn't. Maybe a game form the PRO 12 or the English Premiership?

 

[papabear]

IE Australia v SA say will have less attack going on generally then what tahs v highlanders would have...

In terms of what I compare the NRL too, I personally think it is the best rugby competition in the planet in terms of intensity and attacking (try scoring) and defending (stopping tries) skill on the planet.

I appreciate you and most on here have a different opinion to the above.

In terms of a comparative rugby union competition to the NRL, it depends on what you are trying to compare, as union has a lot more comps it has a lot of different levels being played so if you want entertainment in tries scored and attacking intent, I like the Sydney Grade comp. If you are looking for intensity see SA V NZ or the bledisloe.

Your anecdotal evidence re people you introduce the game too preferring union.

My honest opinion is that is due to your knowledge of union as opposed to league and the manner in which you introduce the game to any said neutral.

Suffice to say give me a neutral and I could introduce them to both games, and depending on the outcome I am going for I could have them loving union or loving league, obviously provided I get a decent game of each.

 

[papabear]

Also regarding the time for ball players to make decisions.

I am not sure I agree.

Regarding the primary playmaker first receiver (7) in league v 10 in union.

Most rugby league defences are trained to flog themselves off the line to cut a ball players time down.

Whereas union aren't as concerned because they are already at the advantage line.

In terms of time for the scrum half v dummy half in league.

The dummy half in league has to make a decision straight away and has two markers on him immediately guarding either side of the play the ball with only 1 player who isn't allowed to get involved on his side in front of him.

In union the scrum half can leave the ball at the locks legs for a while whilst you decide on what play you want to run. So not only is the defence not going to rush to hard coz they don't know when its coming out, but you also have time.

The only thing is union scrum halves can be ill disciplined more often then league dummys making it look like they have less time because they crab across a bit before passing then get there arm raked fking up the pass. Its criminal to do it in either code, but if you are seeing more pressure on a union scrum half that's probably because either a hes crap or b his forwards are crap. Fix the crapness and all of a sudden he has all the time in the world.

 

[mxyzptlk]

In terms of a comparative rugby union competition to the NRL, it depends on what you are trying to compare, as union has a lot more comps it has a lot of different levels being played so if you want entertainment in tries scored and attacking intent, I like the Sydney Grade comp. If you are looking for intensity see SA V NZ or the bledisloe.

No -- I'm talking competition level to get comparable stats, not tries or entertainment. So lets say international representative rugby/league is first division, and it all tracks down from there. I don't want to compare the second division of a third-tier club competition to the premier division of a second-tier club competition, so ITM Cup is out (at least Hawke's Bay vs Otago). Super Rugby is a second-tier southern hemisphere competition, but it's international, and the NRL isn't. So that's out. Currie Cup is a third-tier competition like the ITM Cup and the NRC, so that's out. That leaves either Japan and Europe. Japan isn't really a powerhouse with a legacy of either amateur or pro rugby, so they're out, although they're coming along. The European Rugby Championship is close, but it's international like Super Rugby, so that's out. That leaves the Premiership, the PRO 12, and the Top 14. The NRL has 2-4 more teams than any of those competitions, but at least they're all first division second-tier provincial club competitions, so they're all played in the same country by national and international players, like in the NRL.

That's what I'm talking about.

As far as scrum half vs dummy half goes, you make it sound like the scrum half just takes a load off behind the locks while everyone waits around to see what he's going to do, including the defense. Which again makes me wonder what games you're watching. I'm not sure how having everybody back off the dummy half at the play-the-ball introduces more pressure than having everyone at the advantage line at the ruck. The point of having the defense back off in league is to relieve that pressure so the offense can get a play going (similar to a play in gridiron), ostensibly to make for more action.

But that's a point that gets debated in league media fairly regularly -- if they should back off farther, or be able to come up closer, in order to create more action. But the more they wrestle to slow the play-the-ball down, the less that matters, and the slowing tactics aren't going out of the game any time soon because that's what the defense needs to do -- they're under no obligation to play at the tempo the offense wants to play at. The same goes for union defense, but because there's a competition for the ball at the breakdown, the wrestling to slow things down doesn't come into play, and speed-dependent jackals, clean-outs and turn-overs do.