The League Media

[mxyzptlk]

And lots of other rule changes that have dumbed down the game. The NRL named a team of the century. They should have named two teams because the game now and then (70's and before is radically different). I really don't see how you can pick players, especially forwards, in the same team.

Did you see Paul Kent's coverage of the meeting? He reports on Todd Greenberg's stats on tackling over the past 10 years. Short version: one and two-man tackles have decreased by about 7% and three-man tackles have increased by 15%. I wonder what those stats would have been in the 70's.

It's too bad there isn't competition for the ball at the ruck, because that's where wrestling can really work. If you watched Wales play the Springboks, there was some fantastic wrestling at the ruck/counter-ruck going on between Mtawarira and Sam Warburton.

 

[papabear]

I am glad you enjoy watching wrestling, personally I find it boring in union, league and MMA to be honest.

You might be interested in men aggressively cuddling each other but I am not.

As for the league changes, it is a bit disappointing that all coaches are against any changes, you would expect the current successful coaches like madge and trent to be against them (and old man wayne). But you would think a lot of other coaches would be for anything to help the game.

Hopefully the administration can look past clubs individual agendas and make decisions for betterment of the game for both the players and spectators.

As for your essays, I read them, it is just a lot of the time I don't have the effort nor time to respond in essay kind which they probably warrant.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The OP for this thread reads:

The League Media. Inherently Evil.

N.B.

This isn't a hate on League itself, which believe it or not I did used to enjoy. That was until I had to tolerate the stupid levels of hype about Origin, and the hating on every game that isn't League in some kind of my dad could beat up your dad competition. Plus I was young and I got over all the stupid banter between NSW & QLD when I turned 15.

<snip>

The thread title is "The League Media".

As grand as the recent dialogue is on this thread, much of it really should be on this thread ->http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/rugby-league-really-gives-me-the-shits.5289/ because there has been scant mention of the Loig Media.

 

[papabear]

I suspect that is because a lot of people don't really give a crap about the league media, or realise that the op was a bit oot.

Eitherway what is far more relevant to a lot of people, is that union has a less then dominant place in Australian media despite having a stronger presence then league in most other countries and in certain special schools in Australia.

Also this thread has benefitted from mxxy, who for all his faults (and there are many) does provide a unique perspective on rugby union and league.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I suspect that is because a lot of people don't really give a crap about the league media, or realise that the op was a bit oot.

Eitherway what is far more relevant to a lot of people, is that union has a less then dominant place in Australian media despite having a stronger presence then league in most other countries and in certain special schools in Australia.

Also this thread has benefitted from mxxy, who for all his faults (and there are many) does provide a unique perspective on rugby union and league.

Just because you're being nice here, don't think I wont' respond to your previous post -- had to eat and walk my dogs.

But other than that, I agree with your point about union's media presence.

 

[mxyzptlk]

You might be interested in men aggressively cuddling each other but I am not.

Borderline homophobia? Do you also do open mic nights at comedy clubs?

MrTabua: This post is about wrestling techniques in union and league. 'Nuff said.​

I don't watch any code for the wrestling. However, when it's done well, and when it's applied judiciously and positively, it can be pretty great.

So let's have a look at what actual effective wrestling is in rugby and what men aggressively cuddling each other really looks like.

Here's Beast hitting a ruck against Wales, and Sam Warburton defending it:

How is this positive? First, you'll just have to accept that the ball is always in contention. If you can't accept that, then the rest doesn't much matter. So let's take that as a given.

Second, Mtawarira is using a specific wrestling technique in the ruck to push Warburton back over the ball and/or open up space for his flankers to come in and steal possession. That's positive action -- he's trying to take the ball, not slow play.

Third, Warburton reads that and uses another wrestling technique to counter Beast and throw him off the ruck. This protects and allows his scrum half to use the ball quickly -- again, positive action to keep the ball in play. Beast isn't able to take any space, and the Bok flankers can't do much before Webb clears the ball.

(I could explain those techniques -- I've used them myself in competition -- but I doubt many would be interested. Suffice to say Beast is trying a front headlock and Warburton counters with a duck-under to an outside single. The duck-under is a good counter when someone attacks the head and gets out of position, but Warburton does a few little things to help make sure Beast gets out of position first.)

Now here's an NRL tackle:

The problem here is they're not using wrestling in a positive way, since they're killing the action and slowing play. But beyond that, what they're doing is just strange from a wrestling perspective. It's greco (all upper body), and each tackler needs the second and third tackler to provide a kind of make-shift wall in order to force the hold. But it's like they're trying to put pinning combinations on before they've actually brought their opponent to the ground; that's what children do when they're first learning the sport. From a wrestling perspective it's backwards. One-on-one, none of that would likely work (if only the offense could clear them out).

In both of these instances, some wrestling is being used, but in one instance it's being used selectively and positively in a one-on-one situation to keep the ball in play. In the other it's a three-on-one squid-grip used to slow action and keep the ball from being played for as long as possible.

So which of these two looks more like men aggressively cuddling each other? The one where a forward attacks a flanker's head and then gets thrown while the scrum half has to use the ball as quickly as possible? Or the one where three men aggressively cuddle the ball carrier until they all fall over and the ball carrier starts to thrust his hips in the air like Michael Jackson? You're getting a lot less wrestling in union, and the wrestling that is used is used more selectively and effectively to keep the action going. That's just not the case in league, and the league administrators and media know it.

Look, I doubt slowing the game is going to send many NRL fans over to Super Rugby. But I wouldn't be surprised if it just turns them off.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Keep them coming @mr mxyzptik. I find your wrestling insights very educational. Others may not, but c'est la vie.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Keep them coming @mr mxyzptik. I find your wrestling insights very educational. Others may not, but c'est la vie.

Only when necessary.

 

[papabear]

nice videos mxy

my thoughts,

sam warburton is assisting his garbage scrumhalf take to long to get the ball and kick it. sam being there wresting does slow it down in his teams favour, I agree hes doing the right thing, using his strength excellently and he should defend the position, but the saffa bloke is trying to fuck him off to get at the ball because it is just sitting there with a shit number 9 who wouldn't get a reserve grade nrl contract takes forever to pick it up.

The even funnier thing is the scrumhalf who is taking forever is just kicking which is lol worth on its own, but if he is just kicking it, then what the fuck is he waiting for, the defenders/catchers to get in a better position then they already are. Honestly take that long to make a decision with the ball in league and you get murdered, he is lucky he has ru rules and big buddy sam there, in a shit union side hed get killed.

as for the storm video, yes it isn't traditional high school wrestling in the sense of trying to put ur man on the ground to get a point. and yes the wrestling is boring, but just because it isn't American style doesn't make it any less negative. The only difference is, the attacking player is trying to hit the deck to get a fast ptb, the storm players are trying to hold him up to slow it down.

in league the attack is being positive in terms of speed
in union the defence was being positive.

they both had boring wrestle.

imo the optimum play.

in the union the 9 takes to long he gets punished and either tackled with the ball or the saffa forces a turn over.

in league the storm players get pinged for not getting off quick enough and doing the 1 by 1 release, but souths never score a try because they are just playing for the quick ptb instead of trying to break the line or keep it alive.

but they were nice contrasting videos it is kind of you to post them, that said go onto lu. But that said it is about the Worst part of league and a normal bit of union and league is trying to fix it.

as for wrestling turning league fans to union. no culturally, union doesn't want league fans, so they wont bother, most general fan likes both with either one to a different degree, and you are right, people will swing depending on the entertainment provided by each. However your opinion on that entertainment value is yours alone and everyones is different, heck there might even be some freaks out there who like the wrestle in league... as there clearly is one who likes it in union.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

(I could explain those techniques -- I've used them myself in competition -- but I doubt many would be interested. Suffice to say Beast is trying a front headlock and Warburton counters with a duck-under to an outside single. The duck-under is a good counter when someone attacks the head and gets out of position, but Warburton does a few little things to help make sure Beast gets out of position first.)

N

Felt like I was reading Cider House rules all over again (papabear would not approve).
Great stuff!!

 

[mxyzptlk]

nice videos mxy

my thoughts

are a collection of defensive-crouch snark that neglects the very criticisms your own code is having meetings about. Consider what you say more carefully before firing off a response, or you'll make us think you don't really watch either code.

For instance, for some reason, you still think scrum halves just relax at the back of the ruck and take their sweet time, even though we've already shown union scrum halves regularly get the ball out of the ruck faster than league a play-the-ball. Laws were introduced after the last union world cup to limit how much time they could sit back there -- that's also why the ref is pointing. And I didn't include the footage before the ruck, just the 4-second Beast-Warburton stuff, so how the hell would you know how long it's taking?

Kicking is useful. Mindlessly criticizing kicking without knowing why it's there is not. It's like criticizing a hammer because you don't know what to do with a nail. You might as well criticize every kick after the 5th tackle.

If you don't see that NRL tackle as your very definition of men aggressively hugging each other, you're just being wilfully blind. Todd Greenberg sees that. And what they're doing is directly on the ball to slow playing the ball, not action around the ball that facilitates play. That's less than optimum play, even if you think it's perfect. Again, every NRL coach just sat through a presentation of stats on that. But you can't see it. FFS.

Trust me, you don't want to get into a discussion about American styles of wrestling and what's being used in an Aussie code. There's no "American" style; we compete in every style, at every level, very successfully. (What we do at the NCAA level used to be the freestyle competed in the Olympics.) What the Storm are doing in that tackle wouldn't even be allowed in wrestling because it's negative action and would be penalized -- in greco, freestyle and collegiate, all styles Americans compete in (like hanging on the head too long, two hands on the head, etc.). So even from a wrestling perspective, it sucks because it stops action. They wouldn't be penalized in jujitsu or grappling matches, but there's a reason those are still niche sports.

Let that sink in: The manner in which they employ those wrestling techniques are considered negative in wrestling and would be penalized.

From a functional perspective, the NRL have been employing jujitsu coaches to work on wrestling. That's about locks, chokes, moves that tie up and subdue your opponent. By contrast, take England and the B&I Lions -- their S&C coach Paul Stridgeon competed in freestyle for Great Britain, and that's much more focused on takedowns and opening up action for points (he was recently poached by Toulon). So even the kind of grappling each code utilizes is different -- one about stopping action, one about creating action.

League currently uses wrestling in a negative way (and incorrectly from a wrestling perspective) to slow play down. There is no question about that, even if you question it. The NRL just had an an annual meeting about it, and the league press have been decrying how it's killing the game. Union uses wrestling far more selectively to facilitate play. If they used any more it wouldn't be useful -- and not really necessary, since there's no advantage to be gained by slowing down the ball carrier like it's done in league. In union, if the tackler doesn't release immediately, it's a penalty; in league, the ball carrier hip-thrusts the grass while the tacklers barnacle him.

I could go through a union game and an NRL game and compare how many times wrestling techniques are employed, but that sounds dull. Besides, we already know how often techniques are employed in a league game -- at NEARLY. EVERY. TACKLE.

It's not about liking it or wanting to see more wrestling, it's about using it in a positive way where appropriate. I don't watch either code for the wrestling. I'm just a rugby fan with a lot of experience in this other sport, so I can't not see it when it happens, and I can't not see it when it's used positively or negatively.

(And feel free to drop the weird homophobia. It's about as classy as Todd Carney.)

Bored now.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Felt like I was reading Cider House rules all over again (papabear would not approve).
Great stuff!!

Been a while since I've read John Irving. I think the last book of his I read was A Prayer for Owen Meany, a direct homage to Gunter Grass' The Tin Drum, which is an incredibly weird and disturbing book. (But there's no rugby in it, so I'll shut up.)

 

[Antony]

An analysis of the wrestling techniques used at the ruck could do with a front-page write up. There are probably lots of people who avoid this thread who are missing out on some good stuff.

 

[papabear]

the four seconds the scrum half took in the part of the play you showed me was too long, if it was even longer then it is even more damning.

If you are trying to make the point that you know more about wrestling then me, I freely admit it. You do, congratulations. I do not know a great deal about wrestling.

As for your patriotism to your country and there wrestling skills as well. Again congratulations, I hope they continue to win many gold medals in wrestling in the future.

As for your snide remark about homophobia, todd carney and class.

I am not sure if I have taken it too personally or your meant for it to be personal. Either way it was unnecessary and disappointing, you are more then adequate arguing ball (especially in your field of wrestling).

My post about men cuddling eachother in union, league or MMA has nothing to do with sex, or sexual choices. I find it offensive that you infer that from that paragraph. You have no idea what I do or any other poster around here does with their private life.

To be clear, I find cuddling / wrestling in sporting context between a man and woman boring, between a woman and a woman boring and between a man and a man boring. I do not wish to infer any sexual innuendo there. The term cuddling was used, because imo an upper body cuddle that you find in the sport you loathe so much its ridiculous so much softer then a bon crunching tackle in someones gut or even chopping someone at the knees, which unfortunately you do not see in league much anymore.

I would appreciate it if you didn't go there. As for Todd Carney jokes, imo it is quite weak the need to go there but considering where else you went not entirely surprising.

As for how you view union and league. I fully expect and appreciate that people on this site love union and there feelings to league range from hatred and to love as well...

That said, your argument that wrestling in league is negative crappy boring wrestling, whilst the wrestling in union is positive entertaining thrilling stuff is just pure and utter garbage, spin, tripe. Old hinchy would pop a few shames at the thought.

There is more wrestling in league, yes, there is more plays made / tackles made so of course there is going to be more of most as you have less down time. Also the defence having to retreat lends time to any slowing tactics to give your defence a break then had the rule not been there.

But wrestling in league or union in my opinion is boring as batshit no matter how you look at it. In both games, I want to hear the ball sing, I want to see people try and run into space, and I want to see people get snapped for their efforts.

I get that, that is me only, and everyone finds different bits entertaining, but I dare say should you find the cuddles in league boring, you will find similar stuff boring in mma union or whatever, because it is similar stuff.

In summary, don't let your knowledge of wrestling, love for the English language and a hook get in the way of using your logic.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

7s might be the go if you just want ball movement.
Far be it from me to put words in mxyzptlk's mouth (BTW where does the name come from?) but i think his point was that wrestling in union takes place in close connection with the contest for possession whereas there is no contest for possession in league.
My only other issue is with the idea that these "soft upper body collisions" are less damaging than those of yesteryear: I think their big problem is the increase in both inadvertent head clashes (Quade and the pommy 13) and deliberate head clashes made to look inadvertent (the pommy v Burgess in the loig GF) - these do a lot of damage IMO.
I gather the union training now often involves wrestling.

 

[papabear]

Yeah 7s is good..

 

[mxyzptlk]

the four seconds the scrum half took in the part of the play you showed me was too long, if it was even longer then it is even more damning.

Still faster than a play-the-ball.

As for your patriotism to your country and there wrestling skills as well. Again congratulations, I hope they continue to win many gold medals in wrestling in the future.

Patriotism shmatriotism, you can shove that. You were the one who brought up America. It's a global sport that we participate in, and it's a minority sport here. The fact that we participate in a global sport does not somehow make it American. Don't put words in my mouth -- you'll lose against a straw man.

As for your snide remark about homophobia, todd carney and class.

Regarding homophobia, maybe you don't know how oooooold the wrestling = gay trope is. But your comments about men aggressively hugging each other and Beast trying to fuck (!) Warburton are clearly homophobic code, and the second one is a direct sexual reference. So take your sanctimony elsewhere. If you don't want to be accused of being homophobic, don't make comments like Beast is trying to fuck Sam Warburton on the pitch, when you damn well know better. Wise up or harden up. So yeah, I think you're taking it too personally, otherwise you would have chosen your words a little more wisely.

That said, your argument that wrestling in league is negative crappy boring blah blah blah.

Now: I said the wrestling used in league is negative from a wrestling perspective, and there is no argument that it slows play. Not going over that again -- everyone else gets it. You can say my opinion of wrestling in union is tripe, but you'd be wrong, because I never said it was entertaining and thrilling stuff, I said it was used selectively and positively to keep the ball in play -- the opposite of how it's used in league. Again, don't put words in my mouth.

Last thing: You complain that all wrestling is boring, yet defend it in league as "optimum" play. Those aren't consistent positions, and for someone who tells other people to be logical, you should get that: If it's boring in league, then the use if it is not optimum because it kills the game. And you know damn well you don't see nearly as much of it in union, first because it's occurring at the ruck and not on the ball, second because you don't watch union, and third because it just doesn't happen as much in union as it does in league -- where it happens almost every tackle.

And don't try to throw that garbage, spin, tripe that league has more plays and tackles made, we already went over that -- they're about equal. In another thread I compared the number of phases/tackles and passes between phases between a Rabbitohs-Warriors game and a Waratahs-Blues game, and the number of plays made/tackles were almost identical (57 in the first half for both games, 56 in the second half for both games). But that's old, and if you're just going to ignore that stuff, no point in arguing it.

In summary, let's bring this back to the point of the thread: The league media has been critical of the way wrestling is used in that game. You've been inconsistent about whether that's worth criticizing or not -- on the one hand you say it's boring, on the other hand you say it's optimum play. If that's the best they can play, then zzzzzz. And if all wrestling is boring to you, then you can't defend it in league while critiquing it in union.

My point was that wrestling can be used in a positive way. Unfortunately, the current laws of league create an opening for wrestling to be used negatively -- i.e. in a way to slow and stop play, rather than facilitate it (negative ≠ bad here, it just means slowing/stopping play). Since there's no competition for the ball at the ruck, there's really no way for wrestling to be used positively to facilitate play in league. I don't really care if you agree with that or not, because it being at the top of the annual meeting agenda should be evidence enough. I offered one example of how wrestling techniques can be used to facilitate play in union -- but don't worry, that'll never happen in your code because the laws don't allow competition for the ball. You've suggested that all union is is a wrestle-fest, which just isn't true, especially in comparison to league. And 4 seconds to get the ball out of the ruck is still faster than a play the ball, even if it's not fast enough for you. I imagine 2 seconds wouldn't be fast enough for you if it wasn't league.

We all want to see the ball sing, and that happens in both codes, even if you don't think it does. We get it, you have a cultural bias against union and no matter what you'll always see it through a jaundiced eye while league can do no wrong by comparison. Which really makes me wonder why you're here, unless you just like to troll.

Are we done here? I think I am.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Yeah 7s is good..

I AGREE!

 

[mxyzptlk]

7s might be the go if you just want ball movement.
Far be it from me to put words in mxyzptlk's mouth (BTW where does the name come from?) but i think his point was that wrestling in union takes place in close connection with the contest for possession whereas there is no contest for possession in league.
My only other issue is with the idea that these "soft upper body collisions" are less damaging than those of yesteryear: I think their big problem is the increase in both inadvertent head clashes (Quade and the pommy 13) and deliberate head clashes made to look inadvertent (the pommy v Burgess in the loig GF) - these do a lot of damage IMO.
I gather the union training now often involves wrestling.

Yep, you're summing up my position a lot more succinctly than I did.

I don't know how James Graham doesn't cause himself concussions with how he uses his head as a battering ram in the tackle. Every tackle is a Liverpool kiss. He's really a master of that kind of tricksiness -- a few years ago he was slathering his legs in jars of petroleum jelly to make tacklers slide off him and then lose their grip on the ball.

There's footage out on the interwebs of Paul Stridgeon putting some England players through some wrestling training. It's also used quite a bit in gridiron. When I was in grad school I worked with a lot of NCAA football players; the days after wrestling training they'd be throwing up from the intensity of the workouts.

Also, I love 7s. I used that to get my parents into rugby. It seems to hit a sweet spot between what rugby and league can offer -- not so much 9s and 10s.

(The name comes from an old comic book character. It's never taken on any board because no one can spell it.)

 

[terry j]

you didn't answer the question tho, were does myxy come from!

Twas earlier in this very thread (ie separate from your analysis) where I showed/compared the speed of the two codes in the various parameters (sure, only for those games) were rugby was clearly faster with far more action and time in play.

BUT, if you think 'all scrums are bad' then you will not see anything else but scrums. Etc for any other personal criticism you might have (and to be fair, it applies in reverse, I hate that there is no contest for the ball in league and so I simply cannot see anything other than cynical play and the constant need to do anything you can to slow the play down)

It's interesting to see the different views on sevens. I find it boring, much as I always found playing touch footy boring. (have heard that tens is pretty good, have never seen it but I can imagine it is far less 'touch footy' like).

Shit, all you gotta do is get around a player and run to score.

Meh. Still, each to their own. (and I mean that with league too, if you love it go for it. just don't LIE to try and prove some inane point. It is NOT faster and certainly completely homogenous)

Reducing a game to only have one aspect, like sevens, just rams home to me that everything in life is evaluated by comparison. You can't really appreciate a beautiful warm spring day if you had not gone thru winter. What would you be appreciating if every day was exactly the same?

So, fifteens for me, get it all.

EDIT

that will teach me to be a slow typist, you did answer the question. As you were!