The Israel Folau saga

[Gnostic]

Your confusing the arguments from certain parts of the population, with RA.



The argument isn’t about whether Christian homosexual should be allowed to be offended.

Nor is it about whether other churches have the right to criticise him.

RA’s is not arguing he is bigoted.

RA is not shutting down speech.



RA is saying, we have certain values, and expect employees to respect these values.(sure this may or may not be as a result of commercial considerations)



He is saying he doesn’t agree with these values, and thinks he has the right to sprout contrary views whenever he likes, and to continue to be one of the highest paid employees in the organisation.

He doesn’t care what damage he does whilst he’s an employee, nor does he care what damage he does on his way out.



My view is, if his rants can cause significant damage to his employers they have the right to censore him whilst he is in their employ.



I also feel, after reading an article he wrote after the first episode, he is a grade one hypocrite.

​

​

I am not confusing anything. I do not think he said anything bigoted or hateful or anything like that. He said the same crap I have been hearing from fundamentalist religious types of all stripes I have heard all my life, I am not surprised in the slightest, nobody should be really, the fact that RA is/was shows how naïve they were when signing him on again. ​

​

I worked for an organisation that had a zero tolerance policy, and actual written policy, on social media. No posting of anything that could be interpreted as offensive. Sackable then and there straight away. The right of appeal was very narrow and unlikely to succeed. I have no problem with that at all then or now. Same organisation and others since had a zero drugs and alcohol policy, again written with a clear protocol, including regular daily as well as random and targeted testing. Positive test and it is show cause why your employment or contract is not terminated immediately, and addiction is not a defence. Immediate suspension without pay from positive test. No objection to that either, in fact I pushed for it to be introduced.​

​

My point is I have no problem abiding by the workplace rules, or the enforcement of them.​

​

In this case the rules that have been made are ambiguous and the processes are weak and are easily and expensively challenged. From a professional management team this is unforgivable and the situation was flagged well before this with the Beale saga and Folau's first posting. The fact that they signed him to a mega deal knowing he is a fundamentalist and highly likely to post (and say with his voice) such things especially when preaching, is also complete neglect of their duties.​

​

No problem sacking him at all if the process supported he had breached his contract. This Code of Conduct thing though is so ambiguous and arbitrary as to be unjust, especially when you compare the outcome with the same process finding that Beale only deserved a $10K fine.​

Absolutely he is a hypocrite, such is the way the fundamentalist mind works, they have faith that they are right no matter what contradicting views they take.

 

[I like to watch]

Again, it’s people commenting on the situation who use the word bigot,not RA.

Apart from that I agree in essence with most of your post.

Except, I believe the criticism of RA should be left until it’s proven their actions have negatively effected the result.

If they have to spend $1M in the courts to be vindicated, that’s on Izzy, not them.

However, if the courts find against them, well yeah, it’s pitchfork time.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I have found that people who cry "bigot", "misogyny" etc etc etc are pretty weak minded bandwagoneers more interested in appearing virtuous in social settings and when the chips are down and real support is needed when there will be a cost to be paid in real or personal terms those same people are no where to be seen.

Great quote from Bob Hawke, as to why he believed he was successful

"Do you know why I have credibility? Because I don't exude morality."

 

[Kenny Powers]

Todd Sampson of Gruen and Body hack TV shows and a Director of both Fairfax and Qantas, has been twittering / instagraming about the election and taking comments about his posts.

It's hardly becoming of a Director of two major public companies in particular his comments about Peter Dutton, but more importantly he is now setting the standard for the employees of those companies.

The standard his fellow Directors walk past is the standard for all their employees.

https://twitter.com/toddsampsonOz?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[KOB1987]

Todd Sampson of Gruen and Body hack TV shows and a Director of both Fairfax and Qantas, has been twittering / instagraming about the election and taking comments about his posts.

It's hardly becoming of a Director of two major public companies in particular his comments about Peter Dutton, but more importantly he is now setting the standard for the employees of those companies.

The standard his fellow Directors walk past is the standard for all their employees.

https://twitter.com/toddsampsonOz?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

That's bizzare. We're not allowed to mention QANTAS here though

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I personally can't see the courts overturning this decision as for me it would create an extremely dangerous precedent in employment law that is contrary to many corporates current position.

For me 100% correct position after last years episode where was made pretty clear where the line was to have breached it again meant Israel under his employment contract was correctly terminated. Nothing I have seen has convinced me otherwise but of course what does my view matter but still believe from what I have read most legal views are similar to mine on this case.

I equally don't think Israel is a bad person etc etc and hope he is willing to accept future employment elsewhere for another rugby side - hopefully twiggyball - and which would require him accepting what will likely be very clear social media clauses as a strict and very clear condition of his employment. Who knows what he decides but I just completely fail to see RA employment position and expectations on its employees as unreasonable or out of line with broader policies of any corporate employer of today. If anything he was more likely given much more due process than any employee would have received working for a corporate situation which I am not commenting as right or wrong but just making the observation.

 

[KOB1987]

I personally can't see the courts overturning this decision as for me it would create an extremely dangerous precedent in employment law that is contrary to many corporates current position.

For me 100% correct position after last years episode where was made pretty clear where the line was to have breached it again meant Israel under his employment contract was correctly terminated. Nothing I have seen has convinced me otherwise but of course what does my view matter but still believe from what I have read most legal views are similar to mine on this case.

I equally don't think Israel is a bad person etc etc and hope he is willing to accept future employment elsewhere for another rugby side - hopefully twiggyball - and which would require him accepting what will likely be very clear social media clauses as a strict and very clear condition of his employment. Who knows what he decides but I just completely fail to see RA employment position and expectations on its employees as unreasonable or out of line with broader policies of any corporate employer of today. If anything he was more likely given much more due process than any employee would have received working for a corporate situation which I am not commenting as right or wrong but just making the observation.

that's what lawyers want

 

[I like to watch]

I personally can't see the courts overturning this decision as for me it would create an extremely dangerous precedent in employment law that is contrary to many corporates current position.

The law is not based on the corporates current practices.
It could well be that many employers will need to review their current policies.

IF,Izzy wins.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

The law is not based on the corporates current practices.

It could well be that many employers will need to review their current policies.



IF,Izzy wins.

And yes as we have agreed IF Izzy wins it would have HUGE implications for corporates and not just sporting organisations.

 

[biggsy]

I see the Polynesian exist has started already with Latu.

 

[KOB1987]

I see the Polynesian exist has started already with Latu.

Well it was kind of by circumstance, not design. That we know of at least. I don’t have any evidence to that claim though.

 

[Derpus]

Google says he was kicked out for drink driving.

 

[brokendown]

oh dear,straight to hell

 

[half]

Twas having a coffee with my wife and overheard a conversation somewhat heated about Folau, I don't know the answer to the question that was asked in the conversation and TBH find myself seeing both sides.

Anywho, female in her early 20's I think and I doubt a rugby fan, arguing with a male looked late 20's he looked and sounded a person interested in sport whether a rugby fan no idea.

The young lady is essentially saying Folau should be sent to the south pole for life. The older male is defending Folau. When the young man asks the lady a question and I am blowed if I know the answer.

The man asks, a teacher at a Christian school, after a few years teaching at the school and rising to say a position of a year adviser or head teacher. This teacher announces on facebook they are gay and don't believe in God. Can the church sack the teacher?

The young lady insisted it was different and the young man said it was the same.

 

[lincoln]

The man asks, a teacher at a Christian school, after a few years teaching at the school and rising to say a position of a year adviser or head teacher. This teacher announces on facebook they are gay and don't believe in God. Can the church sack the teacher?

The young lady insisted it was different and the young man said it was the same.

True story (albeit how he communicated it was different) - went to school with the gentleman in question. Very courageous.

 

[Rebelsfan]

Twas having a coffee with my wife and overheard a conversation somewhat heated about Folau, I don't know the answer to the question that was asked in the conversation and TBH find myself seeing both sides.

Anywho, female in her early 20's I think and I doubt a rugby fan, arguing with a male looked late 20's he looked and sounded a person interested in sport whether a rugby fan no idea.

The young lady is essentially saying Folau should be sent to the south pole for life. The older male is defending Folau. When the young man asks the lady a question and I am blowed if I know the answer.

The man asks, a teacher at a Christian school, after a few years teaching at the school and rising to say a position of a year adviser or head teacher. This teacher announces on facebook they are gay and don't believe in God. Can the church sack the teacher?

The young lady insisted it was different and the young man said it was the same.

not sure of the answer to that question, however, at the Christian school that my son attended, there are quite a few openly gay teachers and some in senior leadership positions although none of those teachers have declared that they are atheists. At least one other teacher, though, has declared that he is an atheist, a couple of years ago actually, and he is still there. Not sure about the double whammey though

 

[Turtle]

Genius administrator....

“You can add positive clauses: more money, more shoes, more cars. But you can’t add more clauses that are detrimental to the player unless you have the players association’s and also Israel Folau’s consent.

“That consent was not given from the player so that makes it very hard. Off the back of that conversation we gave to Israel and his manager a second letter that made our expectations of his social media use clear."

 

[liquor box]

not sure of the answer to that question, however, at the Christian school that my son attended, there are quite a few openly gay teachers and some in senior leadership positions although none of those teachers have declared that they are atheists. At least one other teacher, though, has declared that he is an atheist, a couple of years ago actually, and he is still there. Not sure about the double whammey though

You can be gay, but it would be considered as being sinful. As long as you are prepared to repent then that is what matters.

If you declared to be an athiest then this could cause issues due to exemptions in the discrimination act for schools. They are allowed to employ people based on if they share beliefs with the school.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Legally they are different situations due to the specific exemptions in the fair work act legislation

There are also exemptions to discrimination under the Fair Work Act 2009 (Cth) for any action taken against a staff member of a religious institution, where the action is taken in good faith and to avoid injury to the religious susceptibilities of adherents of that religion

That's not to say RA don't have the right to take action against Izzy.

 

[Ignoto]

his teacher announces on facebook they are gay and don't believe in God. Can the church sack the teacher?

The young lady insisted it was different and the young man said it was the same.

I don't think that analogy is quite flushed out to be a direct comparison. But I'll try to fit a square peg a round hole for you.

From the announcement perspective. If Israel announced to the world that he was Christian and believe's in God + the teachings of God. I couldn't see a problem with it. After all RA has demonstrated, Israel being a Christian or even a Muslim if needed isn't a problem.

Now, taking it one step further to be more applicable in this situation.

his teacher announces on facebook they are gay and don't believe in God. The teacher tells all his followers and students that there isn't a God and constantly belittles their faith

I think you need to extend the quote here as Folau hasn't simply announced to the world that he's Christian and believe's in God. He goes one step further.