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The Israel Folau saga

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Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Most overrated beer in the history of beeros.

Horrendous stuff. Back in the day when it first was launched (different name can't quite remember) it was very good and then they mass produced the quality right out of it. Was it not just called Golden Ale?

Tragic it is.

I want large Beer Companies added to the list. They must also go to hell :) Ooh actually no, I'm going already so leave them alone. Four Pines. Bring those damn sinners along :)
 

The Honey Badger

Jim Lenehan (48)
The director of the Russian club Enisei-STM wants to conclude a short contract to Folau for 3 months (November, December, January) while participating in the European Challenge Cup 2019-20. But for the Enisei-STM this will be the last tournament in Europe. EPCR is blocking the participation of Russians and other non Six Nation teams. Therefore, Enisei-STM and another club from Siberia, Krasny Yar, are considering the possibility of participating in Rapid Rugby since 2020. Ideal for Folau to go to Russia for 3 months. If he likes it, then sign a multi-year contract with the Enisei-STM and play Rapid Rugby. How do you like the idea? In Russia, he will have no problems.

I love the idea of Izzy continuing to play Rugby anywhere he can. That is what he does best. If it has to be Russia, so be it. Would rather somewhere we get to see him.

Wish we could get back to Izzy just playing rugby.

Wish Izzy the Lay Preacher would take a long holiday.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
nor effeminate???


effeminate
/ɪˈfɛmɪnət/
adjective
derogatory
adjective: effeminate
  1. (of a man) having characteristics regarded as typical of a woman; unmanly.
    "he lisps and his handshake is effeminate"
    synonyms: womanish, unmanly, effete, foppish, affected, niminy-piminy, mincing, posturing;More
    informalcampy, queeny;
    informalponcey, limp-wristed, pansyish, faggy
    "as his manicured fingers played with the gold medallion around his neck, he looked very effeminate"
    antonyms: manly
The problems of translation.:)
 

Samson

Chris McKivat (8)
It's a beautiful translation, but even it doesn't use the word homosexual. I question whether Israel has a deep enough knowledge of Jacobean English to correctly interpret that version.



1 Corinthians 6:9-10 King James Version (KJV)



9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.



Jacobean English is not the original language of the New Testament. It was written in Greek. The literal translation according to the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament is-

"Or know ye not that unjust ones (the) kingdom of God not shall inherit. Be not misled, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers of themselves as women, nor abusers of themselves with men nor covetous etc..."

I think IF got the intention of the text correct.

It is important to understand that Christians believe that Christ loves all mankind, including sinners (most of us), it is sin he dislikes. IF was trying to make that point. If he had the education that many on here have he may have expressed his message in a way that did not give offence where non was intended.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Jacobean English is not the original language of the New Testament. It was written in Greek. The literal translation according to the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament is-



"Or know ye not that unjust ones (the) kingdom of God not shall inherit. Be not misled, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers of themselves as women, nor abusers of themselves with men nor covetous etc."



I think IF got the intention of the text correct.



It is important to understand that Christians believe that Christ loves all mankind, including sinners (most of us), it is sin he dislikes. IF was trying to make that point. If he had the education that many on here have he may have expressed his message in a way that did not give offence where non was intended.


The Greek version itself is only a translation itself from the Aramaic and Coptic texts. A quick review of the later history of the Eastern Roman Empire will give some significant insight to those interested. Consider especially the role Constantine played and his relationship to the Church/es (and his claim to be the first priest - under the Old Roman Empire Pontifex Maximus) and you will see why the common versions are those translated from the Greek. Not being able to read Coptic or Aramaic I wonder what it says in those languages.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
, but if you are interested Jonathan Haidt , a high profile American psychologist and academic, has some views well worth listening to. His belief is that we have overprotected our kids at the very time when they most needed the right tools to manage social pressures- the social media age.


Great post mate. Spot on. Much research and many speakers are talking about this now, Haidt was in the van of this somewhat radical thought.

I would recommend his book "The Righteous Mind - Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion"
 

Samson

Chris McKivat (8)
The Greek version itself is only a translation itself from the Aramaic and Coptic texts. A quick review of the later history of the Eastern Roman Empire will give some significant insight to those interested. Consider especially the role Constantine played and his relationship to the Church/es (and his claim to be the first priest - under the Old Roman Empire Pontifex Maximus) and you will see why the common versions are those translated from the Greek. Not being able to read Coptic or Aramaic I wonder what it says in those languages.



I have not heard that the NT was written in anything other than Greek. A quick google suggests it was written in something called Koine? Greek ( a mix of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek). I'm not really a student of these things but I will ask a few friends that have some training in this field. I am aware that ancient manuscripts such as 'Dead Sea scrolls' have proven the accuracy of current translations. This is off topic, I only gave the literal translation to illustrate that IF was using an accurate text as far as modern man can tell.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
I'm not going to get into a ridiculous tit for tat with you. Go back a read the post which I posted first - I was talking about the courts. So you you respond to a post about the courts with a post about big corporate employers and complain when I go back to the original point? Really? Maybe you should take your own advice.
Nah I am having debate and expressing counter view points - take it easy mate as you are getting too emotional
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
Sounds like if RA don't want Izzy, Twiggy will have him.
Ah only if he agrees to social media clauses in his contract which he refused with RA which given his higher ground on this issue and past rejection with RA demands on this means unlikely to play rapid rugby.
 
Read all the way through over the last few days. Thanks to the mods for working to keep this open.

I think this touches on a number of questions currently being grappled with across much of the western world in recent times:
(1) What are the appropriate limits on our ability to say what we wish?
(2) What is the appropriate response to someone who says something objectionable?
(3) What right do we have, if any, to be free from offense?
(4) What is the appropriate extent of an employer’s right to sack an employee for what they say and do away from work?
(5) What is the appropriate involvement of a sporting body (or a commercial enterprise) in advocating for social change?
(6) Perhaps also, What is the proper role of religion in modern society?

I think there is a very real chance this dispute will go the distance in an effort to resolve at least some of those issues, for a couple of reasons. First, I think its bang-on for some of them. Second, I think Israel Folau is motivated by a genuine and powerfully held religious conviction, does not need the money, and presumably has a lot of support from his church and sections of the wider community. He is in this for the principle, not the payout. Third, the ARU has painted itself into a corner and feels it can’t back down. Fourth, however offensive to some, Israel’s post is sufficiently non-controversial for a sufficiently large number of people for this dispute to be made to serve as a test-case. Five, these are issues commonly felt to be in need of resolution.

For my part, I think:

- People should be free to say anything short of advocating the commission of violent crimes.

- Criticism, not censorious punishment, should be the price and consequence of freedom of speech. The latter is really an attempt to stifle free speech.

- It is reasonable to expect all adults to be capable of dealing with offense. And if I am wrong, then the freedom to express what we will (subject to criticism) is the more important of the two freedoms.

- Much of what has been said about Christianity in the last few weeks (in these forums, in SMH comments sections…) in the name of advancing inclusiveness and reducing bigotry has been exclusionary and extremely bigoted against Christians and their faith. (And I’m a committed atheist.) Hypocrisy weakens credibility, even when only ancillary.

- Telling Christians that they are free to believe whatever they like as long as they don’t express those beliefs is the same as telling homosexuals to keep it in the closet. Two wrongs do not make a right. And pretending it does further reduces credibility.

- Employers have over-reached in curtailing private time activities and communications, but no-one has yet been adequately funded or motivated to fight that incursion.

And as for the ARU? I think they have blundered cataclysmically in putting themselves front and center here. Society very much needs this; Australian Rugby very much does not. The ARU board has no particular mandate or basis of wisdom to claim the lead in grappling with these issues, let alone at the cost to the game that this debacle will impose in terms of money and disharmony. It is a body charged with administering Rugby, and it is not exactly doing such great work there that it should be volunteering for extra work. How is it that the ARU has threatened to permanently terminate two of its leading rep players for the passion with which they pursue the expression of their environmental and religious beliefs in their own time, when league fails to terminate players who urinate in their own mouths while celebrating sporting victories?

It would have been perfectly adequate for the ARU to make a public statement that in no way does it endorse the views espoused by Israel Folau. No one would have doubted otherwise in any case. They could have gone on to say what they do believe in. And assuming they wish to continue spending resources on doing more than administering Rugby, then they could very easily have had a creative response such as the establishment of an outreach programme to assist troubled homosexual youth – even perhaps challenging Israel Folau to come work with them and see the effect of saying what he did – rather than sacking him.

It is extremely disappointing that this got handled the way it did by the ARU. They were meant to be the adults in the room but they went for escalation and ultimatums as though this were a dispute between pre-teen siblings. They framed this in terms of a binary outcome for Israel, and given what I think we know of him, I think the only hope of avoiding a protracted dispute that will be destructive for Rugby (whatever it might achieve for society), lies with the ARU deciding to re-frame the outcomes. They need to find a creative middle ground here that allows everyone to honorably avoid a showdown. Time for some John Eales era leadership off the field as well as on.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
I love the idea of Izzy continuing to play Rugby anywhere he can. That is what he does best. If it has to be Russia, so be it. Would rather somewhere we get to see him.

Wish we could get back to Izzy just playing rugby.

Wish Izzy the Lay Preacher would take a long holiday.
Yeh but seems Izzy now sees holding firm on continuing to post on social media posts like the last one as what god
Wants him to do more than play footy
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Jacobean English is not the original language of the New Testament. It was written in Greek. The literal translation according to the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament is-

"Or know ye not that unjust ones (the) kingdom of God not shall inherit. Be not misled, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers of themselves as women, nor abusers of themselves with men nor covetous etc."

I think IF got the intention of the text correct.

It is important to understand that Christians believe that Christ loves all mankind, including sinners (most of us), it is sin he dislikes. IF was trying to make that point. If he had the education that many on here have he may have expressed his message in a way that did not give offence where non was intended.

Yes, I know the Bible was written in Greek and if you go back a page you'll see where I specifically said that. Translation being a highly subjective art in which the nuances of words are important.

Even as you note above, the translation that you quote does not use the word "homosexual" and it seems that it is the use of this word which has caused all the problems. You'll need to go back two or three pages if you want to know the context of all this - highlighting the importance of context quoting isolated passages or in you case quoting isolated posts without noting the context i.e. the previous sequence of posts. :)
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
Depends which translation of the Bible that one chooses to use: (note no mention of homosexuals)

1 Corinthians 6:9 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

It's bad luck Izzy didnt use this version of the Biblical passage, but it may have only been a matter of time before he mentioned the word "homosexual" in his religious posts. That's what got him into strife.

It's common for Christians to believe a sexual union should be between a man and a woman only, hence the general opposition to redefining marriage.
That doesnt mean Christians condemn the person. They shouldn't, but some probably do.
The gay community probably see that as patronising and dont need Christian approval. Fair enough.

As far as I was aware the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek.

My New International Version Bible includes the words sexually immoral, male prostitutes and homosexual offenders in the relevant passage.

I did a bit of research and found the following:

King James Version (1611): "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind"

The phrase "abusers of themselves with mankind" translates arsenokoitai also rendered "sodomites" (YLT), or "men who have sex with men" (NIV).

Arsenokoitēs[edit]

The Greek word arsenokoitēs appears in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (TNIV),

The word translated as "practicing homosexuals" has been alternately rendered as "abusers of themselves with mankind" (King James Version, 21st Century King James Version), "sodomites" (Young's Literal Translation), or "homosexuals" (New American Standard Bible), or "men who practice homosexuality" (English Standard Version) or "those who abuse themselves with men" (Amplified Bible) or "for those who have a twisted view of sex" (New International Readers Version) or "for sexual perverts" (Good News Translation) or "for abusers of themselves with men" (American Standard Version). The original term is unknown before Paul. ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitēs), thought to mean "one who has sexual intercourse with a male" (Greek ἄῤῥην / ἄρσην [arrhēn / arsēn] "male"; κοίτης [koitēs] "bed"), rather than the normal terms from the Greek culture. Within the Bible, it only occurs in this passage and in a similar list in 1 Timothy 1:9-10.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
No, you accused me of deliberatly misrepresenting you which is a completely different thing to expressing a counter view.
No, you accused me of deliberatly misrepresenting you which is a completely different thing to expressing a counter view.
steady on old son - using pretty strong language and accusations in your interpretation of posts. Take a chill pill mate as you are interpreting things from me which is not remotely in my nature. I don’t deliberately intend to misrepresent anyone so please stop with the telling me what you believe I intended as that is just ludicrous, take a deep breathe and maybe seriously consider you might be over invested in this thread and perhaps over sensitive. If you still seriously believe I had any malice or ‘deliberately intended to misrepresent you’ - well mate I can’t help you and believe what you want as how you can interpret that from a post is beyond me.
 

Strewthcobber

Simon Poidevin (60)
BitB isissing the massive consequence for RA and the Tahs though - their sponsors. The rugby bodies did have significant financial skin in the game with this decision.

Also missing Izzy wearing Tahs jersey is his profile, and Wallaby jersey throughout his Instagram posts as well as promoting both RA and his personal sponsors on instagram. RA own the image of Izzy wearing the jersey, it's not a private page or conversation, he is representing his employer. Sponsors have already shown they were willing to withhold their money as a consequence. And it's not his first strike.
 

Samson

Chris McKivat (8)
Ah only if he agrees to social media clauses in his contract which he refused with RA which given his higher ground on this issue and past rejection with RA demands on this means unlikely to play rapid rugby.



Would it be so difficult to include a social media clause. Twiggy or RA for that matter could provide a script writer (legal staffer) to assist with any comment relating to LGBTG.
Had IF said " God so loved the world that he gave his only Son to be lashed, ridiculed and killed for all people. All have sinned and fallen short of heaven but now through acceptance of Christ and repentance of your particular sin as outlined in 1 Cor 6:9 you can be saved." No offence could be taken without the bible message being weakened. Surely a win win.
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
Agree SLV, not a bad effort for a first post.

Following on from his post, I agree RA has painted itself into a corner.

He asked a good question:
(5) What is the appropriate involvement of a sporting body (or a commercial enterprise) in advocating for social change?

Right from the start of the SSM issue, RA (and other sporting bodies) jumped onto the rainbow bandwagon, endorsing the YES vote and declaring to the world it has a policy of diversity and inclusion.

I thought at the time, and others thought also, they should have remained neutral and truly inclusive, and declared that they respect all of their fans or stakeholders, whether they were in favour of redefining marriage or not. They could have come up with creative words that appeased everyone and not involve themselves in politics as a sporting organisation.

It didnt make sense to me but it was the politically correct thing to do at the time and was socially acceptable to declare their hand or take sides. They got swept up in the wave of "love is love" sentiment.

Was it also a commercial decision to appease a sponsor that was heavily invested in pushing the SSM issue?

Wisdom in hindsight's a wonderful thing but it looks like they've made a rod for their back, but that's just probably stating the obvious.
 
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