The Israel Folau saga

[Quick Hands]

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So, if I called an employee a fat useless slut, she shouldn’t be offended because it’s not really true?
Or, if I made a racist comment, based on stereotypes towards someone, they shouldn’t be offended because it’s not true?
What about terms like faggot and poof, which are derogatory terms for gays, should they not be offended or not offended in this regard?

why is the solution to this issue telling people they should just learn to not be offended, rather then telling people they should just stop being offensive? I mean, seems pretty simple, really.

You do realise that in this particular instance that Folau didn't call people names along the lines you are suggesting? Had he used derogatory terms then this post would make some sense.

 

[Quick Hands]

The fact that RA cannot terminate a player's contract without having to have it decided by an 'independent' panel is once again being shown up a farcical.

This situation should have been rectified after the Beale fiasco.

You think that employees have no rights when summarily dismissed? Luckily we have contract law and employment law in this country.

 

[sidelineview]

Pretty hard to quantify how much any back actually helps win a game, I always thought they just decided by how much, the piggies do the "winning" after about under 8s

Definitely offensive.
Was the moderator a back?

 

[RebelYell]

has the Code of Conduct been linked to yet?

This isn't the Professional Players Code of Conduct - that is a separate document, not public-facing

 

[fatprop]

This sort of anti-back hate speech disgusts me. It’s the 21st century, leave your 1950s views out of it.

I am prepared to rely on truth for my defence, set piece domination and the following front foot ball provides the platform for the show ponies to look pretty

 

[Finsbury Girl]

To be fair FP - I am firmly of the opinion that it was always the marginal effort of myself whenever I joined a scrum/maul near the line that got us over!

Ah the good old days of a 15 man scrum!

 

[Adam84]

You do realise that in this particular instance that Folau didn't call people names along the lines you are suggesting? Had he used derogatory terms then this post would make some sense.

you do realise that claiming homosexuals are sinners and are going to hell Is fairly derogatory

Whether he used a derogatory term or implied a derogatory outcome, the sentiment is still the same.

 

[Aurelius]

Peter FitzSimons through twitter has given a different take on the post by Israel;



My office doesn't have a dress code persay, but I can't imagine I'd be allowed back to work if I rocked up wearing a similar shirt.

But if you were fired for wearing that shirt at home or even at a party I think your employer would be on thin ground sacking you for wearing it.

For FitzSimons' analogy to make sense Folau would have had to have made his post on RA's social media instead of his own. Or started proselytizing during a press conference on Fox Sports or something.

 

[Quick Hands]

you do realise that claiming homosexuals are sinners and are going to hell Is fairly derogatory

He's just stating what he believes to be the case according to the Christian religion.

Whether he used a derogatory term or implied a derogatory outcome, the sentiment is still the same.

He says that his sentiment is to save people from hell.

Presumably those who don't accept that homosexuality is a sin and those who don't believe in the existance of hell would be unconcerned about what he thinks about either.

 

[Quick Hands]

But if you were fired for wearing that shirt at home or even at a party I think your employer would be on thin ground sacking you for wearing it.

For FitzSimons' analogy to make sense Folau would have had to have made his post on RA's social media instead of his own. Or started proselytizing during a press conference on Fox Sports or something.

FitzSimons makes little sense about most subjects.

 

[Lorenzo]

He's just stating what he believes to be the case according to the Christian religion.
He says that his sentiment is to save people from hell.

Presumably those who don't accept that homosexuality is a sin and those who don't believe in the existance of hell would be unconcerned about what he thinks about either.

And what of the teenager raised a christian who thinks he might be gay? yknow, that group with the really high suicide rates?

Screw them, right?

 

[gel]

I disagree strongly, think RA have handled the whole thing as good as they can!

Are you being serious, or joking?

In case of the former, this is what I think they did wrong:

They failed to include any contractual restraints when renegotiating with him after he had just displayed behaviour very much against the company ideals.

Knowing that he was predisposed to doing this they failed to put in place specific plans in case he did do it again (as shown by them not actually following their own procedures at the start of the whole mess - it clearly just came as a shock to them)

Not having any specific plans in place, they then failed to follow their own standard procedures for recalcitrant behaviour (by saying they were going to fire the guy before they had even spoken to him - just try and do that in your own workplace to one of your staff next time you feel the need to get rid of someone and see how that goes).

Then they followed up with actual procedures they should have followed in the first instance and instigated the code of conduct tribunal thing - which is now tainted by the management stating that they want the person fired.

There's just a whole heap of red flags there that signify that they mishandled this badly.

Here's what I think they did right: They clearly stated their corporate ideals succinctly and separated themselves from his comments. Their response was pretty quick. I also think their standard procedures statement (that they should have followed*prior* to saying they wanted to fire the guy) was good because it laid out what breach they wanted to investigate, the *potential* penalty for that breach and the procedures they would follow to get to the bottom of the sordid issue. Saying that the maximum penalty was termination of contract at this point is totally fine because that is different to saying you want to terminate the contract (which taints the investigation process).

Nothing in what they have done has given me any kind of faith that they had any clue what they were doing in this process until after they had dug out their workplace procedure manual over the weekend and had a read of it - when it should have been the very first document they referred to after the already prepared "In_of_Izzy.pdf" file.

TLDR: no i think they acted poorly for supposedly experienced senior staff

 

[Adam84]

Presumably those who don't accept that homosexuality is a sin and those who don't believe in the existance of hell would be unconcerned about what he thinks about either.

I guess don’t be me so presumptuous in the future?

We all know what hell represents, Christian or not. Where the issue lies is telling people that their sexual orientation is wrong, sinful and the consequence of something which you can’t control is worthy of a life of eternal damnation. For many accepting their sexuality and dealing with the social pressures of being told their life Is wrong is a significant reason the suicide rate amongst gay youth is a statistical outlier and over represented.

It’s not simply limited to people believing in hell or not.

 

[Samson]

The scripture that Folau quoted was addressed to all people. According to the Bible the sin is practicing Drunkenness, idolatory, fornication, adultery, same sex relations etc. The temptations for all are equal, the sin only arises if temptation is yielded to. how you think is irrelevant, how you act is crucial. Folau is only stating his belief in accordance with the Bible which is the basis of the Christian message.

 

[Quick Hands]

And what of the teenager raised a christian who thinks he might be gay? yknow, that group with the really high suicide rates?

Screw them, right?

What a ridiculous post. For someone so concerned about offensive social media posts, you don't see the irony in this post of yours?

By the way, you have the right to say it.

You see, defending people's rights also means defending the rights of people that you disagree with and/or people that you dislike.

 

[half]

Pretty hard to quantify how much any back actually helps win a game, I always thought they just decided by how much, the piggies do the "winning" after about under 8s

Spoken by a typical bone headed prop or something, when we all know its the half directing the brainless and telling the brainless what to do is the true brainstrust and centre of the team.

 

[Aurelius]

And what of the teenager raised a christian who thinks he might be gay? yknow, that group with the really high suicide rates?

I just don't get the assumption that vulnerable potentially gay teenagers would have no support to see them through that kind of personal crisis and are just empty vessels that public figures that Israel Folau can fill with fire-and-brimstone theology.

And if he has those kinds of doubts, how exactly would muzzling Folau help? He'd just be better off avoiding Folau's social media altogether if he's that desperate. Maybe talking to family, a teacher, or a priest instead, for example, or calling a helpline. Instagram doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

[sidelineview]

And what of the teenager raised a christian who thinks he might be gay? yknow, that group with the really high suicide rates?

Screw them, right?

It depends on the individuals dealing with it as it depends how the individual parents react.
Some Churches accept gay people without judgement.
You can't throw a blanket over it.

 

[Quick Hands]

I guess don’t be me so presumptuous in the future?

We all know what hell represents, Christian or not. Where the issue lies is telling people that their sexual orientation is wrong, sinful and the consequence of something which you can’t control is worthy of a life of eternal damnation. For many accepting their sexuality and dealing with the social pressures of being told their life Is wrong is a significant reason the suicide rate amongst gay youth is a statistical outlier and over represented.

It’s not simply limited to people believing in hell or not.

But people who don't think that homosexuality is a sin wouldn't believe that a life of eternal damnation awaits? Most atheists that I know think that there's nothing after this life - hell, heaven or anything in between.

Youth suicide and suicide in general is a serious and complex topic and there are many, many contributing factors. Trying to reduce it to a few lines in an internet post is highly ill-advised.

 

[Rebelsfan]

And what of the teenager raised a christian who thinks he might be gay? yknow, that group with the really high suicide rates?

Screw them, right?

The teenager can repent if he thinks Folau is right, or he can say fuck you, like most teenagers would