The Israel Folau saga

[Quick Hands]

I again point out that it is not some personal misreading but an actual belief from his church. You might discuss the merits or otherwise with a minister, all he is doing is following an established belief system. Beliefs that are not that uncommon among certain Protestant churches.

Possibly a small minority of pentecostal churches rather than maintstream Protestant churches.

As the membership of mainstream denominations have declined in the past generation, they have been replaced by secularism in part of the population and another part of the population has become attracted to smaller localised pentecostal groups which don't really have a coherent doctrine but are often based on the personality and/or interpretations of the group leader. The latter tends to lead to passages being taken completely out of context and gullible people becoming highly confused.

Only a very confused person would link a Jewish prophet who lived 600 years BC to Christmas trees.

Anyway, whatever his group seem to believe, it seems that hell will be quite crowded and heaven will be quite a lonely place according to their world view. Something at odds with mainstream Christian belief.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Update on Folau's visit to RA HQ:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...-first-public-appearance-since-sacking-notice

* meeting lasted ~10min
* Cheika seen leaving it

 

[Quick Hands]

They actually did say it before hand. And it really was publicly.

Now we can leave it at that.

Didn't Pulver say that there was no place in Australian rugby for Beale at a news conference?

 

[Quick Hands]

Please no one ask him how long the the earth has been around for

One suspects his answer would be in the thousands of years, not millions.

 

[shanky]

I’d be amused to know how many of the nation’s ‘free speechers’ would be willing to go into work on Monday and exercise their free speech within the earshot of the boss.

 

[Strewthcobber]

On the subject of how Izzy said idolators are going to hell, so many questions here..

Isn’t god an idol, so by virtue isn’t Izzy an idolator himself?
Also, I’d say a fair chunk of the rugby fan population are idolators as well, through not only idolising their teams like the Waratahs, but players like Folau himself.

So isn’t Izzy encouraging idolisation by playing rugby? How does he rationalise that concept with his beliefs?

Probably because he takes a literal view of what idolatry means and not a figurative view like you have done here

 

[I like to watch]

Why even bother paying attention to him? I have no clue what he said or thinks because I don't waste my time on media whores and extremist trolls.

I can't argue against what you think. I just think they have left themselves open to financial pain by saying they want to fire him before they followed their own processes.

We'll see who's "thinking" is right in the next couple of days.

(Just so I am clear - you guys DO realise that I am not against them firing him as such. It's just that I think the process they have followed here is the same shit that has got them in trouble before with Beale and the Rebels - i.e. shooting off their mouth BEFORE they took the time to think through what they were doing. They quite clearly warned him last time, and he hasn't listened and repeated the same mistake. I personally don't care about his posts but I am not his employer and they are the ones that set out the rules so I can understand their position. I just don't get how they have gone about it).

We are all just surmising here, and Your POV makes sense.
I’m just assuming that this exact thing ( that caused so much angst last time he did it) is described in his contract as a termination event.which given the history makes sense for it to be categorised as such in an updated contract.

 

[wamberal]

One suspects his answer would be in the thousands of years, not millions.

I did not realise that you are a bit of a theologian! I wonder whether he believes the earth is flat, and the sky is actually a dome with holes in it (for the rain), and the sun travels across the dome every day.


I had a friend in Tonga (an American missionary) who told me that he believed that everything in the bible was literally true, except the bit about the 6 day creation. When I asked him to explain the discrepancies between the various Gospel versions of fairly important events like the Resurrection, he told me that all the accounts must be true. Work that out, I couldn't.


We are not dealing with rational thought when we engage in discourse with fundamentalists. That is the problem.

 

[Slim 293]

We are all just surmising here, and Your POV makes sense.
I’m just assuming that this exact thing ( that caused so much angst last time he did it) is described in his contract as a termination event.which given the history makes sense for it to be categorised as such in an updated contract.

Just quoting from the article above, which quotes from the joint RA/Tahs press release:

A joint statement on Thursday from Rugby Australia chief executive Raelene Castle and NSW Rugby Union boss Andrew Hore said: "Whilst Israel is entitled to his religious beliefs, the way in which he has expressed these beliefs is inconsistent with the values of the sport. We want to make it clear that he does not speak for the game with his recent social media posts.

"Israel has failed to understand that the expectation of him as a Rugby Australia and NSW Waratahs employee is that he cannot share material on social media that condemns, vilifies or discriminates against people on the basis of their sexuality.

"Rugby is a sport that continuously works to unite people. We want everyone to feel safe and welcome in our game and no vilification based on race, gender, religion or sexuality is acceptable and no language that isolates, divides or insults people based on any of those factors can be tolerated.

"As a code we have made it clear to Israel formally and repeatedly that any social media posts or commentary that is in any way disrespectful to people because of their sexuality will result in disciplinary action."

 

[KOB1987]

I think the biggest outclause RA have left themselves is the 'compelling mitigating factors' in the last line of the PR. The PR was an attempt to get team Folau to contact them, which evidently worked. It depends what constitutes 'compelling mitigating factors'. If it's shown he has been 'brainwashed' by a cult or sect, as someone has mentioned, that might. Hypothetically, if that's the case and he agrees to leave the sect and get counselling, is that enough in the court of public opinion?

 

[Aurelius]

On the subject of how Izzy said idolators are going to hell, so many questions here..

Isn’t god an idol, so by virtue isn’t Izzy an idolator himself?
Also, I’d say a fair chunk of the rugby fan population are idolators as well, through not only idolising their teams like the Waratahs, but players like Folau himself.

So isn’t Izzy encouraging idolisation by playing rugby? How does he rationalise that concept with his beliefs?

No, no and no. Idolatry in a biblical context refers to the practice of worshiping carved or graven images of gods, which pretty much all the pagan faiths did back then. Judaism (which, of course, is the forerunner to Christianity) distinguished itself in the sense that God was never visually represented as a graven idol. Hence, God isn't an idol, and no living person can be an idol, therefore being a fan of a rugby player, actor or any other celebrity doesn't constitute idolatry.

 

[GunnerDownUnder]

I think the biggest outclause RA have left themselves is the 'compelling mitigating factors' in the last line of the PR. The PR was an attempt to get team Folau to contact them, which evidently worked. It depends what constitutes 'compelling mitigating factors'. If it's shown he has been 'brainwashed' by a cult or sect, as someone has mentioned, that might. Hypothetically, if that's the case and he agrees to leave the sect and get counselling, is that enough in the court of public opinion?

I think it’s more like if we found out he has a close loved one that has cancer or has had a miscarriage or something horrible like that and he has chosen to seek refuge and solace in his faith and made a very misguided post as a result.

 

[KOB1987]

I think it’s more like if we found out he has a close loved one that has cancer or has had a miscarriage or something horrible like that and he has chosen to seek refuge and solace in his faith and made a very misguided post as a result.

Well that's a couple of obvious ones, but not the only ones. Point is it's going to be up to them to decide what is and what isn't. And I suspect one M Cheika will be pushing hard for leniency. And if team Folau has a good legal case they would be more inclined to waver.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Hypothetically, if that's the case and he agrees to leave the sect and get counselling, is that enough in the court of public opinion?

There is the public and the Rugby public.

Me thinks 2 different beasts. Most of the Rugby public (no represented here in anyway) probably don't care too much about Isreals tweets, just want to see the athlete play the game he excels at.

The public though, want him crucified.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

There is the public and the Rugby public.

Me thinks 2 different beasts. Most of the Rugby public (no represented here in anyway) probably don't care too much about Isreals tweets, just want to see the athlete play the game he excels at.

The public though, want him crucified.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this situation, we certainly do love a good pile on in Australia.

 

[GunnerDownUnder]

Well that's a couple of obvious ones, but not the only ones. Point is it's going to be up to them to decide what is and what isn't. And I suspect one M Cheika will be pushing hard for leniency. And if team Folau has a good legal case they would be more inclined to waver.

Yes my point is more that it needs to be a reason all of Australia can understand in some way rather than sorry I had a brainfart
Again.....
Otherwise ra looses face and support from the general public

 

[I like to watch]

I think the biggest outclause RA have left themselves is the 'compelling mitigating factors' in the last line of the PR. The PR was an attempt to get team Folau to contact them, which evidently worked. It depends what constitutes 'compelling mitigating factors'. If it's shown he has been 'brainwashed' by a cult or sect, as someone has mentioned, that might. Hypothetically, if that's the case and he agrees to leave the sect and get counselling, is that enough in the court of public opinion?

He is not going to say he’s been in a cult or a sect.
It’s a definite non starter.

 

[gel]

One suspects his answer would be in the thousands of years, not millions.

It's billions. Just sayin'

 

[KOB1987]

He is not going to say he’s been in a cult or a sect.
It’s a definite non starter.

I agree, I didn't say he'd say he was in one, I said he'd say he was brainwashed by one. That's how most people end up in them, without actually realising it.

 

[gel]

We are not dealing with rational thought when we engage in discourse with fundamentalists. That is the problem.

That's certainly true but it is not just limited to the typical religions that are so heavily criticised.

That includes all the extreme points of view that exist across all the ideologies (whatever they may be). The brain does not work like a computer, it works like a neural network and as such is perfectly capable of holding two or more completely conflicting pieces of information to be true. It's only solid education and proper training that allows for actual reasoned thought.

That's why it is so easy for people to fall into the trap of distorting facts to suit their preconceived notions rather than changing their hypothesis to suit the facts (particularly when the new facts disprove the original hypothesis).

It's also why some people will seek solace and comfort in things that confirm their existing biases when they are feeling down (because those things give them reassurance and certainty given they have invested so much of themselves in coming to those conclusions - so it is satisfying for them to have that affirmation again).

"When I am troubled I seek answers in the good book" is exactly the same as "Gees, I have had a rough day. I know - I'll go watch some videos of Ben Shapiro owning the leftard noobs. That always cheers me up" or "Gees it's been a rough one. I might spend a couple of hours on reddit getting the real truth about what Moneybags McFatcat has been doing to screw us all over"

They're all religions. Except each and every one of them will say that the others are, while theirs is not.