The Israel Folau saga

[Slim 293]

All he did was express his religious views. Views that are not extreme. Folau has been unfairly treated from all this and I hope common sense prevails.

Yeah, nah.........

 

[Braveheart81]

Why not jump on the easy PR bandwagon and say no thanks to him? Behind the scenes, I'm sure RA and the NRL have an mutual understanding not to sign each others wayward stars.

Yeah, they definitely do now.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Why not jump on the easy PR bandwagon and say no thanks to him? Behind the scenes, I'm sure RA and the NRL have an mutual understanding not to sign each others wayward stars.

I wonder what the legalities of that are. Any of our legal brains on GAGR care to comment? This is more to satisfy my curiosity about it than anything else.

 

[liquor box]

that's right - the "stand down" period is forever. represent one Country then that's it.

Is there room for movement in the transfer rules to cater for refugees?

In a round-a-bout kind of way he has expressed his religious beliefs and been fired from his job with a company that receives federal government funding and is no longer able to pursue his occupation due to his religious beliefs.

Maybe he could make a claim under the UNHCR Declaration of Universal rights.

Article 12.


No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 14.


(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

Article 18.


Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.


Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

It would seem that the IRB would have to have some allowance for those who are refugees

 

[Braveheart81]

Is there room for movement in the transfer rules to cater for refugees?

In a round-a-bout kind of way he has expressed his religious beliefs and been fired from his job with a company that receives federal government funding and is no longer able to pursue his occupation due to his religious beliefs.

Maybe he could make a claim under the UNHCR Declaration of Universal rights.

It would seem that the IRB would have to have some allowance for those who are refugees

LOL. I know you're not really being serious, but why would World Rugby have to allow someone to be eligible to play test rugby for a second country if they were a refugee?

Like anyone changing nationality, you are only eligible if you haven't played for a previous country.

 

[Quick Hands]

For those wondering where his head's at:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12221615

I'm aware of the theory that Christians co-opted a pagan festival & made it into Christmas, but isn't Easter the very foundation of their faith?

It's a little odd that he's using passages from the Old Testament to explain why Christmas and Easter aren't related to Christianity. Presumably he knows that the Old Testament predates Christ and the main Christian teachings are found in the New Testament.

I also assume that he's aware that Jeremiah was written centuries before the coming of Jesus and as the Christmas tree came from a German celebratory tradition in the middle ages, I'm more than a little surprised that Jeremiah had any knowledge of Christmas trees at all.

He's clearly committed and passionate, but I think the proverb "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies here.

 

[Aurelius]

Is there room for movement in the transfer rules to cater for refugees?

In a round-a-bout kind of way he has expressed his religious beliefs and been fired from his job with a company that receives federal government funding and is no longer able to pursue his occupation due to his religious beliefs.

Maybe he could make a claim under the UNHCR Declaration of Universal rights.




It would seem that the IRB would have to have some allowance for those who are refugees

Hah, the UN is hardly Israel's biggest fan at the best of times.

 

[gel]

I disagree. I think they did the right thing by making their position clear particularly when that position has broad public support.

Folau was always going to challenge it. He needs to at least indicate that he wants to stay to improve his legal chances of winning a good payout.

I agree with Barbarian that his position is pretty much untenable in terms of returning to play. I would still sue in that position though.

Rugby Australia is in a far better position publicly than any other option they could have taken in my opinion. It would do them no favours to not have at least won some public support and still have to pay him out.

This will cost them financially.

And adding up the number "likes" the ARU have collected on their Twitter feed is not going to lessen the financial blow.

Is it completely inconceivable to you that they couldn't have stated that they strongly disagree with his post, rugby is better than what he's displayed in his post, they will immediately institute a tribunal in accordance with their integrity procedures to get to the bottom of the situation *without* saying before hand "we want to fire the guy"?

THAT'S exactly what gets you into trouble and boxes you into situations you don't want to be in (like the Beale and Rebels situations).

 

[Ignoto]

Is it completely inconceivable to you that they couldn't have stated that they strongly disagree with his post, rugby is better than what he's displayed in his post, they will immediately institute a tribunal in accordance with their integrity procedures to get to the bottom of the situation *without* saying before hand "we want to fire the guy"?

Gel, they did exactly what you described.

https://www.rugbyau.com/news/2019/04/10/statement-regarding-israel-folau-social-media-post

10 April

The content within the post is unacceptable. It does not represent the values of the sport and is disrespectful to members of the Rugby community.
The Rugby Australia Integrity Unit has been engaged on the matter tonight.

Then a day later

11 April
https://www.rugbyau.com/news/2019/0...-rugby-union-statement-regarding-israel-folau

Depending on how Izzys contract is written, I'm unsure what his unfair dismissal claim would be.

 

[Braveheart81]

This will cost them financially.

And adding up the number "likes" the ARU have collected on their Twitter feed is not going to lessen the financial blow.

Is it completely inconceivable to you that they couldn't have stated that they strongly disagree with his post, rugby is better than what he's displayed in his post, they will immediately institute a tribunal in accordance with their integrity procedures to get to the bottom of the situation *without* saying before hand "we want to fire the guy"?

THAT'S exactly what gets you into trouble and boxes you into situations you don't want to be in (like the Beale and Rebels situations).

I think Folau not responding to their attempts to contact for 24 hours forced their hand. I expect the press release would have been different if they'd had been in contact and a code of conduct hearing had been scheduled.

I also think their position on wanting to terminate him wouldn't have changed. I don't think they win any fans by not coming down hard against him and taking that line. I expect they will terminate him even if the code of conduct hearing says otherwise and making the sort of statement they did won't cost them any more or less financially.

If they've decided his position is untenable and he has to go I don't think they help their position publicly by letting it drag out and making the public think they're willing to let him stay. I think the story blows up worse then and RA gets accused of being hypocrites in terms of their stated policies of being inclusive etc.

 

[gel]

^^^^^^i realise they did precisely that. That's why I wrote what I did.

They ALSO doubled down with the follow up that they want to fire him.

That's the point I was making - they shouldn't have said that last part at all because that's gonna get them in trouble.

That was my point.

 

[dru]

It's a little odd that he's using passages from the Old Testament to explain why Christmas and Easter aren't related to Christianity. Presumably he knows that the Old Testament predates Christ and the main Christian teachings are found in the New Testament.

I also assume that he's aware that Jeremiah was written centuries before the coming of Jesus and as the Christmas tree came from a German celebratory tradition in the middle ages, I'm more than a little surprised that Jeremiah had any knowledge of Christmas trees at all.

He's clearly committed and passionate, but I think the proverb "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies here.

I again point out that it is not some personal misreading but an actual belief from his church. You might discuss the merits or otherwise with a minister, all he is doing is following an established belief system. Beliefs that are not that uncommon among certain Protestant churches.

 

[I like to watch]

Gel, they did exactly what you described.

https://www.rugbyau.com/news/2019/04/10/statement-regarding-israel-folau-social-media-post

10 April


Then a day later

11 April
https://www.rugbyau.com/news/2019/0...-rugby-union-statement-regarding-israel-folau

Depending on how Izzys contract is written, I'm unsure what his unfair dismissal claim would be.

It seems weird to say it, but I think RA has done everything they should have,so far.
Alan Jones coming out against their actions, confirms my view.

 

[gel]

I think Folau not responding to their attempts to contact for 24 hours forced their hand. I expect the press release would have been different if they'd had been in contact and a code of conduct hearing had been scheduled.

You can think that if you want. I think they should not have said anymore until they had engaged their processes.

Maybe I have the users mixed up on my phone:

You: "this is like the Beale situation where they said their intent prior to review"
Me: "yes it is"
You: "no it isn't."

Is that it?

 

[Adam84]

Not saying anything would have had the drums beating louder, they were forced into a corner and made the only decision they could have..

Why the fuzz did Israel not answer their calls?!

 

[gel]

It seems weird to say it, but I think RA has done everything they should have,so far.
Alan Jones coming out against their actions, confirms my view.

Why even bother paying attention to him? I have no clue what he said or thinks because I don't waste my time on media whores and extremist trolls.

I can't argue against what you think. I just think they have left themselves open to financial pain by saying they want to fire him before they followed their own processes.

We'll see who's "thinking" is right in the next couple of days.

(Just so I am clear - you guys DO realise that I am not against them firing him as such... It's just that I think the process they have followed here is the same shit that has got them in trouble before with Beale and the Rebels - i.e. shooting off their mouth BEFORE they took the time to think through what they were doing. They quite clearly warned him last time, and he hasn't listened and repeated the same mistake. I personally don't care about his posts but I am not his employer and they are the ones that set out the rules so I can understand their position... I just don't get how they have gone about it).

 

[fatprop]

Please no one ask him how long the the earth has been around for

 

[Braveheart81]

You: "this is like the Beale situation where they said their intent prior to review"
Me: "yes it is"
You: "no it isn't."

Is that it?

I said they went into the code of conduct hearing pushing for Beale's contract to be terminated which they obviously didn't get. That is the similarity to Folau.

I don't believe they stated that position publicly with Beale before the code of conduct hearing as they have now.

Anyway, let's leave it at that.

 

[gel]

I said they went into the code of conduct hearing pushing for Beale's contract to be terminated which they obviously didn't get. That is the similarity to Folau.

I don't believe they stated that position publicly with Beale before the code of conduct hearing as they have now.

Anyway, let's leave it at that.

They actually did say it before hand. And it really was publicly.

Now we can leave it at that.

 

[Adam84]

On the subject of how Izzy said idolators are going to hell, so many questions here..

Isn’t god an idol, so by virtue isn’t Izzy an idolator himself?
Also, I’d say a fair chunk of the rugby fan population are idolators as well, through not only idolising their teams like the Waratahs, but players like Folau himself.

So isn’t Izzy encouraging idolisation by playing rugby? How does he rationalise that concept with his beliefs?