The Israel Folau saga

[Derpus]

why are you bringing me back to first year law. This isn't fun

Welcome to every day of my life man.

 

[sidelineview]

Point remains.

Not many follow that belief actually.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Correcto. I am curious. Here you can usually contract out of a legislative right. I wonder if you can contract out of a constitutional right in the US? i guess probably not.

A confidentiality agreement would be the kind of thing your talking about?

 

[Derpus]

Not many follow that belief actually.

You are definitely missing the point.

 

[Derpus]

A confidentiality agreement would be the kind of thing your talking about?

Hey true. Guess you can eh.

 

[sidelineview]

When those personal views are made in a public setting...

And includes discriminatory comments...

And those comments are in contrast to the policies set out by his employer.....

And violate the terms of his contract......

And he's received prior warning....

Then no, he does not have the right.... or rather, he does but has to face the consequences of his actions.

It's an interesting word ... discrimination.
It will be interesting to hear what the lawyers say about it.

 

[Lorenzo]

Look, it does happen. Christians in Australia lost their jobs because they tweeted that they were going to vote no in the gay marriage referendum. A Christian wedding photographer in Perth told gay customers that he was a no voter so that they had the option of hiring someone else they might be more comfortable with. He's been hauled before the state anti-discrimination commission and is having to go through an expensive and time-consuming legal process.

The Home Office in Britain refused asylum to an Iranian Christian refugee and quoted the Book of Revelations as evidence that he belonged to a "violent" religion and wouldn't fit in with British society. A popular takeaway chicken restaurant in America has been denied licenses to operate in two major airports because they were founded by Christians who donate to such radical, extremist Christian organisations like - erm, the Salvation Army. And so on.

So it's not something you can shrug off so easily. Anti-Christian bigotry is extremely fashionable among some quarters, and while it might be a stretch to call it persecution (at this stage, that is) that doesn't make it any less real or any less risible.

Bigotry in all its forms should be condemned, but as someone posted well up-thread, we've lost our tolerance for intolerance. I'd go further than that. We've become in some cases much more intolerant in the name of tolerance. That's just flat out perverse and wrong.

Sorry mate, but being judged on your beliefs (including which religion you feel a part of) is not the same as being judged on your sexuality. At least in Australia, you are free to choose your religion and free to choose what you believe. So if you wind up believing stuff that other people consider daft, then there might be consequences of that, like being called daft. But you are always free to either hide your dumb views, or change them.

Homosexuals don't have that luxury. You don't choose to be gay, like you don't choose where you were born, and you don't choose your race.

If anything, "religion" is all too frequently used as a cover for people saying stupid shit wanting to avoid the consequences of doing so.

Not that this is relevant to folau. The circumstances here appear to be that he's breached his contract. Frankly if I posted his post on LinkedIn, I reckon I'd be lucky to get a warning like he did from my employer. Zero chance I get a second warning.

 

[Derpus]

Sorry mate, but being judged on your beliefs (including which religion you feel a part of) is not the same as being judged on your sexuality. At least in Australia, you are free to choose your religion and free to choose what you believe. So if you wind up believing stuff that other people consider daft, then there might be consequences of that, like being called daft. But you are always free to either hide your dumb views, or change them.

Homosexuals don't have that luxury. You don't choose to be gay, like you don't choose where you were born, and you don't choose your race.

If anything, "religion" is all too frequently used as a cover for people saying stupid shit wanting to avoid the consequences of doing so.

I think you'll find a lot of religious people will dispute that homosexuality is not a choice.

 

[Lorenzo]

I think you'll find a lot of religious people will dispute that homosexuality is not a choice.

Yeah and they're wrong about that too. They believe all sorts of wild shit - that doesn't lend legitimacy to any of it.

 

[Derpus]

Yeah and they're wrong about that too. They believe all sorts of wild shit - that doesn't lend legitimacy to any of it.

Not disagreeing but you can see where the issue lies.

 

[sidelineview]

You are definitely missing the point.

Inferring that Izzy or any Christian believes in the new earth theory just because some do is disparaging.
Someone could easily become offended because it seems like a stupid theory and infers all Christians are stupid.
Or someone could shrug it off as an ignorant comment.

A transgender woman in the States kicked up a big stink because an employee of a business called him Sir and not Mam. The employee must have thought he was a bloke in a dress even though he identified as a woman.
I'm not sure if that case made the courts but it was news worthy.

 

[Derpus]

Inferring that Izzy or any Christian believes in the new earth theory just because some do is disparaging.
Someone could easily become offended because it seems like a stupid theory and infers all Christians are stupid.
Or someone could shrug it off as an ignorant comment.

A transgender woman in the States kicked up a big stink because an employee of a business called him Sir and not Mam. The employee must have thought he was a bloke in a dress even though he identified as a woman.
I'm not sure if that case made the courts but it was news worthy.

The point is that FP can say that he thinks religious beliefs are dumb because he's not contractually obliged not to. I mean, he could do so anyway, he would just be fired if he was contractually obliged not to.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

See ball-tampering saga.

Everyone's forgotten about that now though, I expect the same to occur with this scenario.

Oh that was just the worst. I was appalled at the garbage being spoken over that incident and said so here as well. The level of phoney moral outrage was sickening.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

"Rugby Australia and NSW Rugby Union have met with Israel Folau in Sydney today.

"As the meeting was held in confidence between the player and his employers, Rugby Australia and the NSW Rugby Union will not comment on the discussions at the meeting.

"Following today's meeting the two organisations will update their respective boards on the matter to consider next steps.

"Our joint position regarding Israel Folau is unchanged."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12221887

Billy V is in hot water & not getting any love from his RPA:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12222015

 

[KOB1987]

I’m going to bail out of this discussion now, I think it’s safe to say it has a long way to play out. My stance is that I can understand both points of view, and I feel he is going to have a strong legal case. What I hope happens is:

- Folau gets to play for us at the RWC
- he cops a big fine, like 50k or so
- he has to have complete separation of his sporting career and his religious beliefs on social media while he is under contract

What I hope happens and what will happen are mutually exclusive.

Back to the rugby. Later.

 

[fatprop]

Here we go. Is that ridicule or intolerance?
We dare not be intolerant of the gay community, inclusivity is the catch cry, but Christianity is fair game.

Clearly ridicule, I will tolerate anyone's rights to their opinion (and defend their right to have such opinion), but in no way should that tolerance infer I respect their ideas or beliefs

Some shit is just stupid

Folau is a member of a looney christian sect, I will defend his right to spout his crap, but i in no way respect his ideas.

Now if the gay community starts spouting looney crap, I get to call that out as well if i choose

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

...
- he cops a big fine, like 50k or so
- he has to have complete separation of his sporting career and his religious beliefs on social media while he is under contract.
....

A 50K fine would be less than 5% of his reputed salary. I think it'd need to be more than that to get his attention.

They already tried having him keep his sport & religion completely separate social media-wise, it's his failure to do so thats got us where we are now.

If RA don't sack Folau for this they're not going to be able to sack anyone for anything that doesn't get them locked up.

 

[fatprop]

The point is that FP can say that he thinks religious beliefs are dumb because he's not contractually obliged not to. I mean, he could do so anyway, he would just be fired if he was contractually obliged not to.

It is good to be the boss

 

[sidelineview]

Clearly ridicule, I will tolerate anyone's rights to their opinion (and defend their right to have such opinion), but in no way should that tolerance infer I respect their ideas or beliefs

Some shit is just stupid

Folau is a member of a looney christian sect, I will defend his right to spout his crap, but i in no way respect his ideas.

Now if the gay community starts spouting looney crap, I get to call that out as well if i choose

Yeah but ...

It's not a looneytune idea. He's quoting the Bible.
I dont agree with his fire and brimstone approach and not all Christian's would agree with accentuating the Hell bit, but as mentioned before...

It's a normal Christian message to the world, that is, repent of one's sins, be forgiven and saved. Not all Christians are fervent evangelists but he obviously is.

Someone doesn't have to be a member of a cult to spread this message.

Therefore it's stupid shit in your opinion.

In my opinion the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras has become completely stupid and over the top because it's become a family thing. Entertainment.
However, parents have the right to expose their kids to near naked people gyrating in public.
It's become socially acceptable.

From a legal point of view Im not sure if this is an open and shut case of breach of contract but then again I'm not a legal expert.

It does however open up a huge can of worms.

 

[fatprop]

Yeah but .

It's not a looneytune idea. He's quoting the Bible.

Well it is full of looney tune ideas IMHO, but it is a bronze age document; used for parables, I see little issue with it. But when they try to use it as a basis of fact, well nah, a step too far

It's a normal Christian message to the world, that is, repent of one's sins, be forgiven and saved. Not all Christians are fervent evangelists but he obviously is.

Agreed, they can say whatever they like. As I have said before go through the Sydney CBD each day and I can get the same shit preached at me. I don't care what they or he says about my supposed life after death.

That said i appreciate the community and support a good religious group can provides it's members

In my opinion the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras has become completely stupid and over the top because it's become a family thing. Entertainment.
However, parents have the right to expose their kids to near naked people gyrating in public.
It's become socially acceptable.

Fair enough, it is socially acceptable (they wear less on most beaches) and each parent has the right to choose to expose their kids to it or not. But I honestly think that ship has sailed as each kid these days carries around a portable porn player as it is, a night of watching gyrations is incremental at best

From a legal point of view Im not sure if this is an open and shut case of breach of contract but then again I'm not a legal expert.

It does however open up a huge can of worms.

It depends on the on the contract and what he promised to do under that contract for the massive amounts of cash he receives.