The impending Hooper vs Pocock Dilemma

[Slim 293]

How about now.........?

We want a complete 7, we should invest in Ant Fainga'a.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The point is Pocock plays a larger part in the outcome of the game then Hooper or even McCaw does.

Mate you've completely lost me with that. Not even any point discussing it with you. If you think that you've can't see past Pocock.

All I will say to conclude if Hooper wasn't doing what the coaches wanted out of our 7, I doubt he would continually be picked over Gill, a player Link is much more familiar with and greatly assisted his development.

 

[Viking]

Mate you've completely lost me with that. Not even any point discussing it with you. If you think that you've can't see past Pocock.

All I will say to conclude if Hooper wasn't doing what the coaches wanted out of our 7, I doubt he would continually be picked over Gill, a player Link is much more familiar with and greatly assisted his development.

Pocock has come closer to outplaying McCaw then Hooper ever has. I never once said Hooper does not deserve to be picked over Gill. He 100% deserves a spot in the current wallabies but when comparing Hooper and Pocock then it's an easy decision IMO.

When comparing McCaw and Pocock - well then I can say you have some valid arguments. Who would pick McCaw over Hooper - everybody. Who would pick McCaw over Pocock - well I bet a fair few would pick Pocock.

 

[Tomikin]

I will be surprised if Pocock has the same impact he used to have in the first half of the season.

Whilst Pocock is fairly super human, I can't think of anyone who has bounced straight back to their best after a knee reco.

Anyone Think that being at the Brumbies with there pack (Fardy, Mowen, Carter, etc etc) will help Poey. I think his first few games he was pretty good. I have a feeling he may look outstanding but be a bit off the pace because the team around him is better and the game plan will suit.

Kick tackle hammer the breakdown... I can really see him shine. Plus Lord Laurie said Poeys looking fantastic. Hopefully they improve his running game and linking game..

 

[A mutterer]

i don't mind either player taking the spot and look forward to their tussle for superiority.

 

[tranquility]

I know this has been said countless times on this forum, but David is the most professional athlete in the country. His dedication borders and arguably crosses the line of complete obsession, and it is something that he touched on in his book I believe (body image). Add to that, that he doesn't party + grows his own veges. He literally gets every ounce of ability out of himself.

 

[USARugger]

He may at rare times require 3 backs to clean him out but modern training techniques have brought everybody up to similar levels. Any tight forward with the right technique going in to take Pocock out of a ruck will. If they cannot get under him they will roll him and no matter how strong Pocock gets, he cannot prevent that.

So you really think that rucking technique and efficacy has come that car along in the past few years? It's just funny because it actually did usually take multiple forwards to move Pocock once he had wrapped around the player/ball. He is a literal rock there just like G. Smith was.

Pocock reliably produced turnovers/holding on penalties (errors). With Hooper recently we've had lots of penalties..against us.

 

[Dave Beat]

Gee I'd hate to be in Poey's shoe's everyone is setting him up to be a world beater. It was approximately 12 months ago there was a similar thread when he was coming back from another injury.

I'm pleased we have a Super Season to see how he returns from injury, with the amount of rugby he's played in 2 years some may call him injury prone.

I'm pleased we had a 7 on stand by that was good enough to pick up nearly every award available. For what it's worth I do think some of G Smith's rugby this year was a master class to both of them.

Hoop's and Poey both bring something different, I think it was Bob Dwyer who said Hooper was our greatest go forward - a pretty important aspect.

 

[Brumby Runner]

He may at rare times require 3 backs to clean him out but modern training techniques have brought everybody up to similar levels. Any tight forward with the right technique going in to take Pocock out of a ruck will. If they cannot get under him they will roll him and no matter how strong Pocock gets, he cannot prevent that.

I'm intrigued to know on what basis you can say he forces more errors or where you attribute Pocock's influence on these to.

If making more metres in tight is a consideration for openside flankers then the selection basis is so out of whack that it doesn't matter who we pick there. You do understand why they are called loose forwards don't you? It's not because they are expected to play tight. On that note, I'd expect a player who players tighter to make more tackles and hit more rucks than one who is playing looser. Both because there is more traffic and less work required to get in the position to make the tackle/hit the ruck when comparing tight to loose.

In closing considering the constant scrutiny we come under with our support play, a player like Hooper who does cover the ground and is there in support is invaluable. I don't understand why you'd want your smallest, fastest and most mobile forward on the ground fighting with some 120+kg gorilla whilst nobody is in support for breaks due to the fact that you're tight forwards are too slow and cannot keep up. Things like these are why we are so far away from the All Blacks.

Have a look at the video posted by Tip to remind yourself just how strong Poey is at the breakdown. Especially at about 1.15 where he gets hit by three very large Saffa forwards who also try to roll him, but he retains his feet and steals the ball. This is not just a one-off for him neither; it is what you get from him time after time and game after game.

 

[Viking]

In case you have forgotten Pocock was good enough to put the great G.Smith on the bench. He was classified as our starting open-side and Smith wasn't exactly in bad form either, in fact Smith was our most effective and consistent performer at the time. I remember thinking how the hell can they bench Smith for this Pocock guy when Smith is currently our best player.

Smith walks in after a stint with Japan and takes over a starting position from Hooper against the highly regarded B & I Lions. Its clear what the pecking order of seven's are in this country.

Pocock
G. Smith
day-light
Hooper
Gill

I would admit that Smith and Pocock will probably rotate the top 2 positions on form... but then again when have they ever shown bad form?

 

[Brumbieman]

My only worry with Pocock, and I said this 4 years ago, is that he's too big. He's just TOO muscly and strong, to the point where it's going to affect his career. I really wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't make it past another 25 caps in his career, because of his technique.

He relies so much on his silverback-like strength that the strain on his joints and muscles is too much. Where Gill and Smith pilfer the ball, it's usually by excellent timing, accuracy and reading the game. They often score their turnovers at rucks which haven't been set up properly, or the support is late/not the right players. They back this ability up with decent strength but it's not their biggest attribute. That said, I reckon Smith would be able to squat a Range Rover.

Pocock looks like the hulk and his style of turnover is to be a blunt instrument at the breakdown. He gets himself into positions that Smith or Gill would never be able to stay in, and wins the penalty (usually, occasionally it's a clean steal) by brute strength. He locks onto it like a limpet clam and nothing will budge him. Without that obscene strength, I don't think he'd be anywhere near as successful at it, and herein lies the problem. At the age of 20, the body is very durable, but even at 25/6, it's taken 4 extra years of punishment and starts to lose that durability.

Getting himself into awkward positions is going to start causing injuries that wouldn't have happened a few years ago, and I fear we're already starting to see it happen. Two severe knee injuries in 2 years?

 

[Bullrush]

He is the No 7 other teams and countries don't want to face.

This is the biggest factor in favour of Pocock.

Who cares if all your team-mates think you're a good bloke and your coaches love you. If that was so important, then Tom Carter would have been a stalwart of the Wallaby back-line for years

But I don't think there is any doubt that Test oppositions would much rather face Hooper than Pocock any day of the week.

 

[It is what it is]

When will rugby really wake up to the opportunity represented by the injection of the right player at the right time from the bench?
Soccer has been using astute substitutions for years and Tim Cahill coming on last night and scoring the winning goal is further evidence.
If Pocock and Hooper/Gill can be used in combination effectively, we'll get 90-95 mins worth of No 7 value out of 80 mins of rugby.
Deans showed us how not to use a bench - as an afterthought and poorly timed action.
The difference between teams in RWC 2015 could actually come down to who has the better bench and who uses theirs the best.

 

[Bullrush]

When will rugby really wake up to the opportunity represented by the injection of the right player at the right time from the bench?
Soccer has been using astute substitutions for years and Tim Cahill coming on last night and scoring the winning goal is further evidence.
If Pocock and Hooper/Gill can be used in combination effectively, we'll get 90-95 mins worth of No 7 value out of 80 mins of rugby.
Deans showed us how not to use a bench - as an afterthought and poorly timed action.
The difference between teams in RWC 2015 could actually come down to who has the better bench and who uses theirs the best.

Some players are so good that even at the 80th minute when they have given everything they have for the last 79, they are better than the fresh legs sitting on the bench. McCaw is a prime example.

Pocock is probably another.

 

[Dave Beat]

In case you have forgotten Pocock was good enough to put the great G.Smith on the bench. He was classified as our starting open-side and Smith wasn't exactly in bad form either, in fact Smith was our most effective and consistent performer at the time. I remember thinking how the hell can they bench Smith for this Pocock guy when Smith is currently our best player.

Smith walks in after a stint with Japan and takes over a starting position from Hooper against the highly regarded B & I Lions. Its clear what the pecking order of seven's are in this country.

Pocock
G. Smith
day-light
Hooper
Gill

I would admit that Smith and Pocock will probably rotate the top 2 positions on form. but then again when have they ever shown bad form?

Deans bonned up for Pockock - that's why.

 

[Dave Beat]

When will rugby really wake up to the opportunity represented by the injection of the right player at the right time from the bench?
Soccer has been using astute substitutions for years and Tim Cahill coming on last night and scoring the winning goal is further evidence.
If Pocock and Hooper/Gill can be used in combination effectively, we'll get 90-95 mins worth of No 7 value out of 80 mins of rugby.
Deans showed us how not to use a bench - as an afterthought and poorly timed action.
The difference between teams in RWC 2015 could actually come down to who has the better bench and who uses theirs the best.

On the money there.
Hooper has done nothing to be dropped.
Selection next year has to be based on form.
Yes Pocock was better at the ruck, and I recall his ball in hand didn't occur that often. If he still has the pre injury form at the ruck - the first 60.
Hooper does compete at the ruck, but is our best go forward forward, it would be a shame to loose that. Hooper would / could create havoc in the last 20.

 

[It is what it is]

On the money there.
Hooper has done nothing to be dropped.
Selection next year has to be based on form.
Yes Pocock was better at the ruck, and I recall his ball in hand didn't occur that often. If he still has the pre injury form at the ruck - the first 60.
Hooper does compete at the ruck, but is our best go forward forward, it would be a shame to loose that. Hooper would / could create havoc in the last 20.

Being a 'bench player' has had a stigma attached to it.
The sooner we place increased value on bench players being impact players the better.
Years ago there was a stigma attached to jumpers that were numbered outside the starting set of numbers. Then a guy called Michael Jordan came along and his No 23 was cool enough for Shane Warne and Michael Clarke to follow suit.
One day we'll understand that your best player based on form might be most valuable to the team and game plan coming off the bench.
Owen Finnegan coming off the bench in the RWC Final in 2003 would have turned the tide of that match.

 

[It is what it is]

Some players are so good that even at the 80th minute when they have given everything they have for the last 79, they are better than the fresh legs sitting on the bench. McCaw is a prime example.

Pocock is probably another.

The skill is to let them know they've only got say 60 mins on the field so they bust their arses and cram everything into that time and don't leave anything in the tank. You can always leave them on for extra time if they're travelling well.
It's no coincidence that players often do something spectacular just before they are to be replaced. They know that their last 2 minutes is the last 2 minutes they'll be playing but others on the field are thinking '20 mins to go'.

 

[Train Without a Station]

In case you have forgotten Pocock was good enough to put the great G.Smith on the bench.

That's completely false. He was picked over Smith. Does not mean he was better than Smith. Continued with the Deans trend of pushing out experienced players who likely had a strong voice in team matters.

 

[Bullrush]

Being a 'bench player' has had a stigma attached to it.
The sooner we place increased value on bench players being impact players the better.
Years ago there was a stigma attached to jumpers that were numbered outside the starting set of numbers. Then a guy called Michael Jordan came along and his No 23 was cool enough for Shane Warne and Michael Clarke to follow suit.
One day we'll understand that your best player based on form might be most valuable to the team and game plan coming off the bench.
Owen Finnegan coming off the bench in the RWC Final in 2003 would have turned the tide of that match.

I can't think of any sport where your best player is left to come off the bench. All the greats always started.