The impending Hooper vs Pocock Dilemma

[Viking]

Is Super Rugby going to tell you much? Some people here thought Gill had a superior Super Rugby campaign than Hooper.

I agree to an extent that Super Rugby is not going to be the best measure of the 3 opensides. However it is our only gauge before the Test season starts.

I actually think Hooper is a better Super Rugby player then Pocock - because it is less physical then test level and Hooper is much more effective at the breakdown at super level. However everything changes on the Test scene. It is much harder to distrupt opposition ball at test level - but this is where Pocock shines.

 

[Brumbieman]

Pocock will have the super rugby season to stake his claim, and will need to prove he has something more recent than an excellent World Cup match over 2 years ago to promote him self. Pocock has never dominated a season in the way hooper has this year, winning every award on offer at state, super and test level.

Gill showed some good form early on in super rugby before getting dropped by Mckenzie just before the lions tour. Gill has a little more to his game than pocock but unfortunately for him has failed to impress at his best skill the breakdown at test level. In 15 tests gill has not forced any penalties or made any
steals. Hard to believe but true.
If pocock can stay fit gill will be history

Bullshit, he had two clean steals against Italy alone, in 15 minutes of play.


He's the best ball thief in the country, even ahead of Pocock who generally doesn't so much win the ball, but the penalty.

 

[Tip]

Not sure what to make of some of these posts. It's a shame people easily forget that Pocock literally carried (along with Sharpie) the Aus forward pack for the last 2 - 3 years of Deans' tenure.
He was making 20+ tackles a game (Go look at the number of tackles made by Australians in the last 10 games. If any Aus bloke has made more than 15 I will eat my hat). Add to the fact that Pocock is the quickest to regain his feet after making a tackle in world rugby, allowing him to immediately threaten, attack and slow the opposition ball. This is everyone's main gripe with Hooper - he's lazy and ineffective at the break down. Everyone busts a nut about Slipper & Alexander seagulling out on the wing, however Hooper is Australia's biggest culprit of this!

Pocock was guaranteed to make at least 2 - 3 turnovers a game, not to mention the amount of times I've seen the opposition team get pinged for holding on 10 metres out from the Aus line.

Now, can someone please convince me that Hooper's perceived ball running ability is more valuable to the Wallabies Jersey than Pocock's contributions outlined above?

Yes, Hooper is Aus' best ball running forward. Not an achievement considering our forward pack is full of people who rarely bust a tackle. (Mowen, Simmons, Horwill, Fardy, Timani, Douglas, McCalman, Dennis...) However, he doesn't do it in tight like Squeaky, and he gets man handled when he picks & go's. Fact is, we won't need Hooper's carries next year as both Higginbotham and Palu are better than Hooper with the ball in hand.

He'll still be a great addition off the bench against tired legs. Gill unlucky to miss out on RWC Squad in 2015

 

[fatprop]

When Pocock moved to the Brumbies they talked about his need to work on him attacking skills, he still does.

Hooper needs to work on his accuracy on the ball and decision making.

Neither is near a McCaw type of complete 7.

 

[Viking]

Well said Tip. Agree 100% with the above.

Not that I like knocking Hooper - he is a very good player but not on Pococks level as a test 7.

 

[RoffsChoice]

We want a complete 7, we should invest in Colby Fainga'a.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Everyone busts a nut about Slipper & Alexander seagulling out on the wing, however Hooper is Australia's biggest culprit of this!

Funny, I thought opensides were the smallest and quickest players in the forward pack so they could run wide, get to the wide backline rucks and make cover tackles.

It's not a 7's job to be working in tight all day.

If we can get to a properly functioning a complementing pack, the need for Pocock is diminished, because at his best, what he did were things that shouldn't have been his job a lot of the time.

I find it hilarious that a player getting constantly picked by the coach, getting man of the match awards, players player awards and selected the best player at his province and in the country is worthy of so much criticism and we apparently are so clearly needing the return of a player who has spent the best part of 2 years injured now, so could take time to get back to his best.

The most intelligent comment I've read in this thread was regarding horses for courses. Neither are complete players and that actually makes sense.

Perhaps I'm alone in this too but it appears in Australia we consider the breakdown the sole domain of the 7, where in every other nation it falls on the entire forward pack. Including New Zealand. Is McCaw still solely a breakdown pest? Hardly. He is. But he is also a ball runner, a link man and much more. He also occupies the wider channels. No other international 7 is purely a breakdown exponent and not much else. Look at Robshaw, SOB, Warbuton, etc. They may be the best pilferer in their team due to their physical attributes and speed to the breakdown, however their game revolves around much more than this. Much like it did for George Smith.

I would also argue, in relation to Tip's post that any openside flanker carting the ball up off the halfback is not doing his job, because his job is to cover ground and reach the rucks that the tight forwards won't get to. Crashing it up in tight when you are the smallest forward might be great if you want to get into a proverbial pissing contest, but doesn't do much for having a balanced team that players their own roles.

PS. All the Sharpie love since he's last season is making me sick. He had a solid final season and was an excellent line out exponent and a leader for the entirety of his career. But he was justifiably dropped on many occasions due to tendency to seagull and throw shithouse cut out passes to the grass throughout his career. This tends to be missed when looking through the rose coloured glasses though.

 

[Braveheart81]

Perhaps I'm alone in this too but it appears in Australia we consider the breakdown the sole domain of the 7, where in every other nation it falls on the entire forward pack. Including New Zealand. Is McCaw still solely a breakdown pest? Hardly. He is. But he is also a ball runner, a link man and much more. He also occupies the wider channels. No other international 7 is purely a breakdown exponent and not much else. Look at Robshaw, SOB, Warbuton, etc. They may be the best pilferer in their team due to their physical attributes and speed to the breakdown, however their game revolves around much more than this. Much like it did for George Smith.

I agree completely with this.

So often when we get smashed at the breakdown we blame the 7 (Hooper) as if it was entirely his fault yet in almost all these situations you can pick our 2-4 forwards who were completely missing for most of the game.

It is not a coincidence that in every game where our forwards play better as a unit, our 7 (whoever they are) has a much stronger game at the breakdown winning turnovers.

Hooper has plenty of room for improvement to become a complete player but so too does Pocock. Just in different areas.

What is certain is that both of them are amongst the best players in Australian rugby and are almost always amongst the best players in the side every time they take the field.

Given Pocock's bigger frame, I think next season if both Hooper and Pocock are on form, we are far more likely to see both on the field at the same time more than we have in the past.

 

[Bairdy]

Chris Alcock > Pocock, Hooper

 

[Train Without a Station]

Chris Alcock > Pocock, Hooper

Bahahahaha hilarious.

Chris Alcock > The bloke playing 7 for Woollhara Colleagues 5ths... Would be debatable.

 

[Slim 293]

Chris Alcock > Pocock, Hooper

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

This is a no-brainer isn't it? Pocock starts, probably captain, Hooper on the bench.

60 minutes into a game, seeing Hooper get on the paddock - that's pretty bloody handy!

 

[Tip]

Perhaps I'm alone in this too but it appears in Australia we consider the breakdown the sole domain of the 7, where in every other nation it falls on the entire forward pack. Including New Zealand....

I don't believe that the breakdown is the sole domain of the 7.... But a great 7 should be the ZenMaster of that domain - and sadly Hooper isn't. This is why many people would like to see Gill have a crack at starting.

I would also argue, in relation to Tip's post that any openside flanker carting the ball up off the halfback is not doing his job, because his job is to cover ground and reach the rucks that the tight forwards won't get to. Crashing it up in tight when you are the smallest forward might be great if you want to get into a proverbial pissing contest, but doesn't do much for having a balanced team that players their own roles.

Pocock makes more metres in the Tight. Makes more tackles. Makes more Turnovers. Forces more errors. Hits more rucks. Slows down the Opposition ball and often requires 3 players to clean him out.

Hooper makes more metres.

Pocock was nominated for IRB player of the year in 2010 & 2011. So in the last two seasons in which Pocock played he was one of the best 6 players in the world.

Hooper will not be nominated this year, he wouldn't even be in the top 10 of the year.
Read, Savea, Warburton, Halfpenny, Du Plessis, Willie Le Roux, Nonu, Ebetzeth, C. Smith, A. Smith ....
I know who I'd prefer.

Pocock to start, Hooper replaces Palu / Higgers to finish the match with 2 fetchers. He'll make a great bench player against tired legs.

 

[Zander]

On what planet is Warburton a better 7 than Hooper? He will be nominated but lose to Read.

 

[Braveheart81]

Hooper will not be nominated this year, he wouldn't even be in the top 10 of the year.
Read, Savea, Warburton, Halfpenny, Du Plessis, Willie Le Roux, Nonu, Ebetzeth, C. Smith, A. Smith ..
I know who I'd prefer.

I guess we'll find out who is nominated in a week or so.

I'll be pretty surprised if Read doesn't win but I think likely nominees might come from:

Read, Hooper, Halfpenny, de Villiers and maybe a Smith (how's that for sitting on the fence ) .

I would bet on Hooper being nominated ahead of most of the players you've listed.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Pocock makes more metres in the Tight. Makes more tackles. Makes more Turnovers. Forces more errors. Hits more rucks. Slows down the Opposition ball and often requires 3 players to clean him out.

He may at rare times require 3 backs to clean him out but modern training techniques have brought everybody up to similar levels. Any tight forward with the right technique going in to take Pocock out of a ruck will. If they cannot get under him they will roll him and no matter how strong Pocock gets, he cannot prevent that.

I'm intrigued to know on what basis you can say he forces more errors or where you attribute Pocock's influence on these to.

If making more metres in tight is a consideration for openside flankers then the selection basis is so out of whack that it doesn't matter who we pick there. You do understand why they are called loose forwards don't you? It's not because they are expected to play tight. On that note, I'd expect a player who players tighter to make more tackles and hit more rucks than one who is playing looser. Both because there is more traffic and less work required to get in the position to make the tackle/hit the ruck when comparing tight to loose.

In closing considering the constant scrutiny we come under with our support play, a player like Hooper who does cover the ground and is there in support is invaluable. I don't understand why you'd want your smallest, fastest and most mobile forward on the ground fighting with some 120+kg gorilla whilst nobody is in support for breaks due to the fact that you're tight forwards are too slow and cannot keep up. Things like these are why we are so far away from the All Blacks.

 

[Tip]

Just a friendly reminder on what we've been missing out on. And that is a match winner...

 

[Train Without a Station]

Cheers for that compilation of all his best moments. Should we look at one of Hooper's best moments too and agree that a biased view of all a players strengths is no basis for objectively discussing said players?

 

[Viking]

@trainwithoutastation.

Your kidding yourself mate. If you want to rate the effectiveness of a player compared to another I would choose Pocock. You say his skills aren't needed but your wrong. He has continuously made key plays to change to outcome of matches.

I can recall so many try saving tackles, turnovers at crucial moments - many when NZ are heavy on attack. And he does this every game! Sure G.Smith Hooper and McCaw have more well-rounded games - but if you want to measure who wins games - its Pocock for his crucial plays.

The point is Pocock plays a larger part in the outcome of the game then Hooper or even McCaw does.

 

[Brumbieman]

We want a complete 7, we should invest in Colby Fainga'a.

I can see that hook, nice try