The Impending Beale vs Folau vs Cooper debate

[Pete King]

Any suggestion of Folau playing anywhere but 15 is absolute madness. If his rate of improvement this year is anything to go by I don't think I'm talking out of school in saying he could be one of the games all time greats. At times in international matches this year he looked like a man playing boys. Why you would play him anywhere else is beyond me.

KB (Kurtley Beale) as suggested in earlier posts for mine barring injury and assumig at top form would be a good cover on the bench for 15, wing and 5/8 with his versatility. Like the idea of QC (Quade Cooper) and Izzy playing full games though

 

[wamberal]

At times in international matches this year he looked like a man playing boys. Why you would play him anywhere else is beyond me.

How do we know that fullback is his best position? I, for one, have an open mind about which position he should play.

He is very talented, he could obviously play in the centres and, arguably, have an even greater impact. After all, he would get a lot more touches, wouldn't he?

 

[Train Without a Station]

You saw it within the first 50 seconds of the Wales match. Folau is a 13.

High ball is important no doubt about it but the damage Folau can do at 13 is greater.

How do you figure? Digby was shown to be less effective there due to being constrained to that channel, not being able to pop up in different areas very much like Izzy is starting to do... Then in a traditional backline move he would be one pass closer in... I don't see what the fuss is about.

 

[Forcefield]

Our goal should be working toward the 2015 World Cup. With Folau at 15 we have someone who is very dangerous to put kicks to. That is an asset that cannot be underestimated. The alternative is KB (Kurtley Beale) at 15 and frankly we've seen him spill high ball heaps of times.

Kuridrani has been doing a great job at 13- let him stay there.

 

[Pete King]

9 genia
10 QC (Quade Cooper)
11 Cummins/tomane
12 To'omua
13 KURIDRANI
14AAC
15 FOLAU

white/lilo/beale/oconnor/foley

Has me excited for the future, how the forwards play and what forwards picked will ultimately decide whether we challenge the all blacks

 

[Forcefield]

If Speight is available, I'd consider dropping AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to the bench and having Cummins on the other wing. Beale and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can cover all positions from the bench.

If Godwin puts in another season like his last, I think To'omua's position will be looking a little unsafe too.

 

[BDA]

I think the real problem Beale faces is two-fold.
1) he would not be your first choice for 10,11,12,13,14 or 15; and
2) there are players the provide more utility on the bench.

It looks as though McKenzie's preference is to have 1 spare playmaker/centre and one spare outside back on the bench.

in terms of the playmaker/centre bench positive (which is the most likely spot for beale in the side) he'll be probably competing with Lilo. But currently Lilo is looking like the preferrable player for that spot. He can play 10 and 12 (and 13 at a pinch ala the scotland game) and he is a gun kicker (a trait which is also handy to have on the bench) KB (Kurtley Beale) cant play 12 or 13 and whilst he can play 10, Mckenzie has preferred to move To'omua into 10 when the sub comes on. His only advantage over other options is his long range place kicking ability.

In terms of the outside back spot, again I dont think you'd go for a guy that can only cover 15 and not wing. Two other players spring to mind as the most likely to take that spot at the WC and they are AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) ad JOC (James O'Connor). both are specialist outside backs who will shine in 11, 14 or 15. They also happen to be flexible enough to play centre at a pinch, which certainly doesnt hurt.

All of the above leave me scratching my head as to where you fit Beale in this team. I suppose if Folau went down injured he'd certainly be a handy replacement

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think KB (Kurtley Beale) is destined to be a super sub now, covering 10/15. As much as the idea of Izzy at 13 intrigues me (and I'd be happy for Cheika to trial him there) he is majestic at fullback and such a threat that opposition coaches ought to be bloody worried.

We'd also do well to heed the warnings of our Kiwi cousins: don't play great fullbacks at outside centre. Were Leon MacDonald, Mils Muliaina or Christian Cullen better centres than they were fullbacks? Absolutely not. The All Black coaches weakened a strength to cover a weakness. We shouldn't either and besides, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Kuridrani are no mugs there.

 

[Train Without a Station]

If Speight is available, I'd consider dropping AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to the bench and having Cummins on the other wing. Beale and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can cover all positions from the bench.

If Godwin puts in another season like his last, I think To'omua's position will be looking a little unsafe too.

I'm not getting too carried away waiting for Speight and Godwin. They looked the goods and would have been great in 2013, but like it so often happens, a couple of players popped up, took their chances and made the jerseys their own (To'omua, Tomane and Cummins). I tend to think Speight and Godwin may have to wait a bit longer due to bad luck of not being available at the right time.

 

[Brumby Runner]

You will note the suggestion was predicated on the presumption he regains his 2010 form where he was close to WPOTY and would be difficult to leave out. It also contained the assessment that if he doesn't - bench him.
If he regathers that form then he wouldn't be playing in someone else's position. He would be playing in his own. (at least in attack where its fair to say most of his 2010 brilliance occurred) and shifting in defence to make way for Folaus superiority under the high ball.
Many teams shuffle their defensive and attacking lineup and prejudice based on previous experiance of the Cooper FB/10 switch doesn't necessarily mean it has no merit.

On his 2010 form and in 2010 he earned his place in the team, imo at fullback. He was never as good at 10 as QC (Quade Cooper) and while we were going through a time of fairly ordinary players in some other positions, he was never the incumbent 12, 13, 11 or 14. In 2013, and I fully expect in 2014 and 2015, he will not displace Izzy at 15, nor any of the incumbents in the backline otherwise. At best, if he returns to his best sober form he will be on the bench. I am fearful however that his demons will never allow him to return to his best.

 

[Train Without a Station]

In 2010 he still had his own shortcomings (high ball and defence). He had great attacking play, but they shortcomings were overlooked due to great attacking play and lack of other quality alternatives.

In 2013 Izzy is as good on attack, albeit in a different way. Better on the run, in contact but not quite as quick and agile off the mark. Better under the high ball, a stronger tackler, though not a perfect defender.

 

[BDA]

I'm not getting too carried away waiting for Speight and Godwin. They looked the goods and would have been great in 2013, but like it so often happens, a couple of players popped up, took their chances and made the jerseys their own (To'omua, Tomane and Cummins). I tend to think Speight and Godwin may have to wait a bit longer due to bad luck of not being available at the right time.

Very true. I think the next step for guys like that is to get included in a test squad. The Wallabies usually assemble a large squad at the start of the year which generally includes a number of fringe players, and young up and coming players that they want to introduce to the fold. From my observations that squad usually gives an indication on who the coaches see as potential selections over the next 12 to 24 month. This year it included fresh faces like To'omua, Lilo, Folau, Sio and Ryan.

I think the first step for Godwin and Speight is to get included in that initial squad. It means they are seen as possible selections. In order to do that they'll need another strong Super season (which you'd expect from these talents).

The next step involves working their way into the 23. That's a tad trickier. Usually you have to rely on several injuries, or form slumps by players above them. There are exceptions (Folau 2013) who's form warrant immediate inclusion. Re Goodwin, he'd really have to have an amazing Super 15 to jump the line in front of To'omua and Lilo, although Link may prefer him to the likes of Horne and McCabe. Spieght's form was pretty impressive in 2013, and if he backs it up in 2014 it will be interesting to see what Link does. Prima Facie he's behind Tomane and Cummins who I think should now be considered our incumbents.

I'm a converted Honey Badger fan.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm not a fan of the notion of incumbency necessarily. However I believe it should be difficult to oust a player, playing well in a winning team. So you have to think players who are playing well in positions of others who are out with injury like:

6. Fardy
7. Hooper
12. To'omua
11. Cummins
14. Tomane
15. Folau

You have to think these guys deserve the first chance, providing they maintain form in Super Rugby considering they have proven themselves to be top performers at test level.

I'm not saying the team should be harder to get out of then get into, we just shouldn't get into the habit of discarding players performing well on the chance that an untried player may also perform well.

Our prime focus should really be jerseys 9 and 3 right now, with an eye on seeing further improvement out of 4, 5 and 8.

 

[Braveheart81]

If Kuridrani remains the first choice 13, I think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is still ahead of Tomane at 14.

Tomane has had a couple of excellent tests but AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) consistently plays close to his best.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that. Providing no form slumps with Kuridrani, he appears to be the solution at 13 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) barring injury or incident will be in the team which leaves one spot. We already have now 2 proven performers vying for it.

I'm not at all discounting Speight. I'm just discounting the notion that he is a walk up start. He may well not even make the 23 because Tomane and Cummins were at the right place and the right time and made the most of it and will now be hard to overlook if they maintain good form. History is full of those athletes who have done that.

Hell in NRL Ben Ikin basically made a career out of it after the 95 SoO.

 

[Braveheart81]

I agree that it will take obviously superior performances in Super Rugby by players who weren't on the EOYT where the team clearly turned a corner to oust current players.

If current players are healthy and playing well, they're very likely to get first crack in the June tests.

At the end of the day, 2013 Super Rugby form by players like Speight and Godwin will count for little and they'll again have to be absolute standouts to make their case for selection.

 

[Swat]

I don't think Link favours incumbents the same way that Dingo did. He's already dropped Genia and stripped Horwill of the captaincy. I'd say that he'll look at each person with regard to what they have done in the past, but more importantly with regard to how they perform this upcoming Super Rugby season.

At the end of the day I'm a happy Wallabies supporter, we've got more more depth than we've had in a long time. If everyone is fit we're keeping great players on the bench or even out of the 23. The Wallabies are playing attacking rugby, they're scoring tries but most importantly they are looking like a team again.

I'm back on the train!

 

[A mutterer]

i'm looking forward to the 2014 season. beale has to fight his way into the waratahs squad first and foremost. if he can't outperform the guys from last season then all of this will be moot.

 

[Scrubber2050]

WE'VE spent probably $800K for Izzy and he has lived up to or exceeded expectations - its just plain f------ stupid to consider KB (Kurtley Beale) (or anyone else for that matter) in THAT position at THIS stage.

 

[TOCC]

It's not a matter of whether Izzy would make a good 13, it's likely he would... But does it strengthen the overall team dynamic at test level? I don't think so..

His aerial skills are something which no other player in Australia or internationally can match. His physicality in attack is similar to that of Kuridrani..

So by moving Izzy to 13 the overall team is weakened becuse there are no other candidates of the same calibre. Australia has blokes like Kuridrabi and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) who make quite good impacts from 13, we don't have the same depth at 15.