Ted think losses are Match Fixing

[barbarian]

Well the book hasn't been released yet, HJ, so I'm not quite sure what else I am supposed to do.

 

[Braveheart81]

Well the book hasn't been released yet, HJ, so I'm not quite sure what else I am supposed to do.

Taking a leaf out of Graham Henry's book (no pun intended) and speculating wildly seems to be the way to go.

 

[Mank]

And yes that may be twisting the truth, but I think someone of his stature in the game should have known better.

That comes across as very patronising. Henry obviously believe there was something to answer, it doesn't sound like he did anything on a whim. I've said it before, I don't believe there is currently evidence of match fixing that couldn't be explained by a poor day at the office, but if there is a bizarre refereeing performance then it's worth looking into.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The old 'when the team wins it's beacuse of the players and when they lose it's because of the coach' huh? I suppose there were no great players in the 1998 All Black team that lost 5 straight Tri-Nations and Bledisloe games? Or the 5 years between 1998 - 2002 when we couldn't win the Bledisloe? I suppose Phil Jackson isn't that great of a coach either - he's had Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Grant, Bryant, Shaq etc all play for him over the years. Wayne Bennett is lucky he had guys like Alfie, Lockyer, Petro, Tallis, Sailor, Tuquiri etc in his teams. What about Sir Alex Fergusson? It must be so easy for all of these coaches huh? Bullocks - you can't take the guys record and imply he had little to do with it. When it come to winning results, Sir Henry ticks all the boxes. If you think it's easy, ask any Kiwi's if John Hart and Wyane Smith are remembered as greatly successful AB head coaches?

But he also has the respect of his players and his management team. Something Mitchell/Deans didn't have. When Henry re-applied for the job, players like Dan Carter and Ritchie McCaw backed him over Deans. Big tick given all the success those two enjoyed with Deans in Canterbury. Yes, the RWC result in 2003 was the nail in the coffing for Mitchell but there was a rising feeling of dislike for him and his style in the media, the public and amongst some of the players well before that tournament. And unlike Henry, Mitchell doesn't seem to have learnt from those mistakes.

Henry also worked hard to install a great culture within the ABs. Early on in his tenure he talked about his belief that better people make better players. He was quick to stamp out off-field controversies and made some tough decisions eg. Piri Weepu, Ma'a Nonu and Troy Flavell dropped from the 2007 RWC squad. When was the last time you saw a scandal that involved any AB players? Corey Jane and Israel Dagg out having a few drinks and a smoke a few night before a RWC game. No urinating in public, no stolen laptops, no getting into fights, no making out with some local girls. Pretty tame. And who came down to the pub and pulled them back into line..the same guy who had been dropped 4 years earlier for 'attitude' issues - Weepu.

The 2007 semi-final hurt the ABs and the AB fans hard because unlike 1999 and 2003 where the best team on the day won, the French got the huge 'rub of the green' that day, to put it mildly. For the French to not concede 1 penalty for 50-60mins is simply ridiculous. I'll admit that match-fixing crossed my mind that day - I'm not surprised it did Henry's as well. His job and his reputation were on the line. But he came back, learnt from his mistakes (again) and won the RWC.

You mite not like Graham Henry but you can't take away from the fact that he is a great coach.

have you seen the documentary?



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[Bullrush]

have you seen the documentary?



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No

 

[Dam0]

Documentaries are not a particularly reliable source because they are almost always written and presented with an agenda. It's pretty easy for a film maker to take a snippet from an interview here and there to make it seem like there is some great story to be told, when actually there is not. The people who produce Reality TV are masters of creating story lines out of nothing.

And in any case, that Wallaby team of 2001 was at the height of its powers; beating NZ both games that year and winning the Tri Nations. If the All Blacks couldn't beat them, I don't see why anyone would give the Lions much of a chance, especially considering the Lions dire record of late.

 

[I like to watch]

Well, Ted definitely gave them no chance!
I take your point on selective editing, but you still have to do the things they show you doing, and you still have to say the things they show you saying.
Selecting editing or not Ted came across very poorly.Especially with someone who had an impressive CV at the time.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Documentaries are not a particularly reliable source because they are almost always written and presented with an agenda. It's pretty easy for a film maker to take a snippet from an interview here and there to make it seem like there is some great story to be told, when actually there is not. The people who produce Reality TV are masters of creating story lines out of nothing.

And in any case, that Wallaby team of 2001 was at the height of its powers; beating NZ both games that year and winning the Tri Nations. If the All Blacks couldn't beat them, I don't see why anyone would give the Lions much of a chance, especially considering the Lions dire record of late.

Its hard to imagine a better source and that is not to deny that selective editing etc could present a picture consistent with the agenda of whoever is driving the bus. i certainly would not put the memoirs of a now lauded knight of the realm ahead of a cineme verite documentary on the reliability list.
This was filmed, as I understand it, from inside the tent: warts and all including Ted's half time speech in Melbourne. There was no narration as I recall it but i could be wrong on that one. i believe some players may have filmed it but not sure where I got that from.
If you recall the Lions won the first test in Brisbane very easily and at half time in Melbourne were exactly half way through the series and in front with the Wallabies having shown little to worry them. Ted basically said as much at half time - and the rest is history. They lost the series from that point.
The difference between his half time demeanour and the full time spray was something to behold and yet he had arguably set them up to do just what they did.
This is the aspect that most perplexed me when he got the ABs job: it showed arrogance in writing off the wallabies and dismissing them at half time in a test match yet a preparedness to blame the troops when they acted on his view that they were so far superior to their opposition that they only needed to turn up in the 2nd half to take the series. Having encouraged them to take that view he was personally scathing of them when it cost them the game.
His treatment of the players was worse around the Sydney test: I think Austin Healey may have written something about it for the pommy press at the time....
I cannot recommend the documentary highly enough and would love to see it again for its fascinating insight into an arena that I, for one, will never be exposed to (subject to me accepting the Tahs job).

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Here you go - my memory's better than I thought...and worse as well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2001/jul/22/rugbyunion.lionstour20013

"And if you want heresy, how about this? For the good of the game of rugby it was not so totally devastating that the Lions lost. If Henry had won, his style might have become the template for the professional game. A Lions tour is a warm-blooded, emotional, passionate rollercoaster of an adventure. Graham Henry brought to it the warmth of a North Sea cod."
Here's the video: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Lions-Close-And-Personal/dp/B000063BMN

 

[Athilnaur]

I enjoyed that article. Not sure it establishes Henry as anything other than a great coach though. Take a mix of irish, poms, welsh and scots, add 1 changing shed. If anything the kiwi in the equation was a shot at uniting them I'd think. He certainly united the Welsh.

And what coach gets lauded for a loss, let alone a foreign coach?

Anyway it is all nonsense, to call Henry anything other than a superb coach is silly. I pay it as much mind as the people who say that the Crusaders won 7 super rugby tournaments despite Deans, and about as much credence as people who think Hansen is the best coach in NZ and let Wayne Smith go back to regional rugby.

 

[Bullrush]

Well, Ted definitely gave them no chance!
I take your point on selective editing, but you still have to do the things they show you doing, and you still have to say the things they show you saying.
Selecting editing or not Ted came across very poorly.Especially with someone who had an impressive CV at the time.

The tour was 11 years ago and 3 years before he took over the ABs.

If Henry was still the same coach in 2011 as he was in 2001 then I think the Lions Tour would be relevant. He wasn't though. Here is a coach who seems to have kept learning from his mistakes, kept honing his skills and at the end of the day, won almost every trophy on offer.

The other thing that I think Henry has done that guys like Deans and Mitchell haven't is that Henry has been able to attract other great minds to work with him. Look at the difference between his and Deans' coaching staff the last 4yrs. And Henry would be the first to admit that those guys have been instrumental in the ABs success just as much as he has been.

 

[Bullrush]

Just watched this interview with Graham Henry. Again, just re-emphasised for me his ability as a coach to take on feedback and change his style. John Mitchell really should give him a call.

http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday-news/sir-graham-henry-we-have-never-heard-him-before-video-4993326

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The tour was 11 years ago and 3 years before he took over the ABs.

If Henry was still the same coach in 2011 as he was in 2001 then I think the Lions Tour would be relevant. He wasn't though. Here is a coach who seems to have kept learning from his mistakes, kept honing his skills and at the end of the day, won almost every trophy on offer.

The other thing that I think Henry has done that guys like Deans and Mitchell haven't is that Henry has been able to attract other great minds to work with him. Look at the difference between his and Deans' coaching staff the last 4yrs. And Henry would be the first to admit that those guys have been instrumental in the ABs success just as much as he has been.

he succeeded despite himself, not because of it.


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[Bullrush]

he succeeded despite himself, not because of it.


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Have you watched the interview?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Have you watched the interview?

Yep: supports my view. Tub thumping was dead long before he found out....and he had to be told it was dead.
And I repeat: has he ever done an analysis of AB illegalities? Blaming refs or sport betting is arrogant because it assumes an entitlement to win.

 

[teach]

You guys are right. Graham Henry is a crap coach. The last couple of years the All Blacks have been untter rubbish. The fact they have won a few games here and there was entirely down to the assistant coaches and the players. Pure luck I say.

 

[Bullrush]

Yep: supports my view. Tub thumping was dead long before he found out..and he had to be told it was dead.
And I repeat: has he ever done an analysis of AB illegalities? Blaming refs or sport betting is arrogant because it assumes an entitlement to win.

Sorry, what other losses has Henry blamed on the ref or sport betting??

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Sorry, what other losses has Henry blamed on the ref or sport betting??

Ones enough - particularly in that context...plus I seem to remember some criticism of the ref(s) in the documentary.
To the extent that he is blaming depression (although he implies that's not a real man's condition by reference to Kirwan) he has my sympathy and there is no doubt that can cloud judgment and compromise dealings with human beings.
I am intrigued by his victim mentality too: lost his seats at Eden Park, his parking spot there, the "Henry Rule" in relation to coaching and the match fixing.....

 

[I like to watch]

Have you watched the interview?

Funny how we can watch the same thing and come away with different conclusions.
He is revered in NZ, he was awarded a knighthood as a reward for coaching the AB's. now that he has retired he is an "elder statesman" of the game. What good comes from this apart from selling some books?
Many might think he is the ants pants, I just reckon it is a grubby act.

 

[Bullrush]

I started writing a long reply but then couldn't be bothered. According to you guys, Henry is a terrible coach, a 'grubby' person and an all-round low-life. How he's been able to achieve so much and still keep the respect of the players and his management team is just bizzare.