Sydney Subbies 2025

[Pfitzy]

That's a good summary of where we are.

As house prices creep up in Sydney, that line of affluence is going to move. The new areas that are opening belts of real estate are going to become progressively more challenging for all sports except cricket and soccer I'd say, due to the cultural makeup of the population moving there.

That may change over time, but generally requires kids from those cultures to have streams of influence like schools to light the fire.

The southwest is a wasteland for rugby. Campbelltown Harlequins are the outpost along with a couple of struggling junior clubs, from memory.

The current clubs in the top Divisions usually have 3 things in their favour:
1) Viable juniors program and/or school association.
2) Access to facilities with the support of local governing bodies (or at least no interference)
3) A history of more than 30 years.

You can have one of these things but not necessarily be successful. Being in older suburbs is definitely a help as the population tends to be less transient.

Our experience in the Northwest is that we don't have Old Boys - partly due to being less than 20 years old, and partly due to the nature of the 'burbs: when people reach a certain age, they sell up and move out. Not as easy to get volunteers when the surrounding areas are often waiting rooms for retirement. And with WFH now common it is even more precarious.

It'll be interesting to see what the new Head Of Western Sydney Rugby can do to help with this sort of thing

Sportspeople: Head of Western Sydney - NSW Rugby Union

The role will lead the growth of Western Sydney and drive NSW Rugby’s Western Sydney Strategy

www.sportspeople.com.au

 

[Pfitzy]

In addition to where we are, we need to look at where we were. Here is a list of Subbies clubs that have folded in the last 20 years - some of whom only existed for a few years, and a couple even won trophies!

You can see that it isn't limited to the southwest, with the Eastern Suburbs also having a fair bit of attrition as the volunteer base and/or facilities and/or financial factors killed them off. SW Sydney definitely had a lower base to start with, some of those clubs (like Liverpool) being established long ago in what were essentially towns on the edge of Sydney.

 

[Here To Do]

In addition to where we are, we need to look at where we were. Here is a list of Subbies clubs that have folded in the last 20 years - some of whom only existed for a few years, and a couple even won trophies!

You can see that it isn't limited to the southwest, with the Eastern Suburbs also having a fair bit of attrition as the volunteer base and/or facilities and/or financial factors killed them off. SW Sydney definitely had a lower base to start with, some of those clubs (like Liverpool) being established long ago in what were essentially towns on the edge of Sydney.

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This is probably the sadder part and I'd assume many of the stalwarts of those clubs have either left Sydney or left us altogether.

I wonder, too, whether some of the blokes from these clubs have gone on to have kids that have played rugby outside Subbies. Are we just that unattractive to play for? (yes - Subbies has become a dead end because of the gulf between Super, Shute and everything else)

 

[Pfitzy]

Are we just that unattractive to play for? (yes - Subbies has become a dead end because of the gulf between Super, Shute and everything else)

Firstly I think we need to take into account that community sport - particularly for adults - is on the downtick in general. Mostly it is money and time that people don't have. Would you risk rugby if you were a tradie? Fuck no.

Secondly, rugby has no connective tissue through the system outside a few well-trodden pathways. Other sports which bring juniors to seniors through a club system that isn't perfect, but at least knows where it is headed.

We continue to run a disjointed environment where juniors and seniors don't even talk to each other at some clubs, because there is no incentive to work together. In that you have kids getting burned either when their Juniors club can't field a team above U15, or when their school experience is poor, and when they've gone into the Premier Rugby system only a small percentage move into Subbies.

Lastly, on the south-west side of The Red Rooster line, you're up against rugby league with money. I've been out on a jog or walk some days in my relatively affluent new suburb with a Renegades training top on, and see a young bloke with the air of a footy player about him. The first question out of their mouth, more often than not: "What's the match fee?"

When I respond "free beer and pizza" they smile, and say they'll think about it. I know they've already forgotten the whole conversation.

There's a shitload of league kids who fall off the pathway to the NRL, who can still make fairly attractive money bashing themselves up in the levels below it. Try and tell a guy that amateur rugby is a better option than paying his rent, or having enough spare moolah to go on holiday.

 

[Here To Do]

Firstly I think we need to take into account that community sport - particularly for adults - is on the downtick in general. Mostly it is money and time that people don't have. Would you risk rugby if you were a tradie? Fuck no.

Secondly, rugby has no connective tissue through the system outside a few well-trodden pathways. Other sports which bring juniors to seniors through a club system that isn't perfect, but at least knows where it is headed.

We continue to run a disjointed environment where juniors and seniors don't even talk to each other at some clubs, because there is no incentive to work together. In that you have kids getting burned either when their Juniors club can't field a team above U15, or when their school experience is poor, and when they've gone into the Premier Rugby system only a small percentage move into Subbies.

Lastly, on the south-west side of The Red Rooster line, you're up against rugby league with money. I've been out on a jog or walk some days in my relatively affluent new suburb with a Renegades training top on, and see a young bloke with the air of a footy player about him. The first question out of their mouth, more often than not: "What's the match fee?"

When I respond "free beer and pizza" they smile, and say they'll think about it. I know they've already forgotten about it.

There's a shitload of league kids who fall off the pathway to the NRL, who can still make fairly attractive money bashing themselves up in the levels below it. Try and tell a guy that amateur rugby is a better option than paying his rent, or having enough spare moolah to go on holiday.

Yep - that's what I've picked up in my (albeit much shorter) time in rugby. You have to love it to want to be part of it for any period of time, but if you're in it for any period of time, you'll love it.

Also, free beer and pizza sounds good but not as good as a Briars burger, Renegade roll (yet to try one but have heard good things) or the simple B&E, in my opinion.

 

[Pfitzy]

Also, free beer and pizza sounds good but not as good as a Briars burger, Renegade roll (yet to try one but have heard good things) or the simple B&E, in my opinion.

Yes, but the burgers and rolls aren't free That's the point with some of these guys.

Increasingly I'm finding the playing cohort want to turn up, play footy, then go have their own social calendar. The rugby club - like the country dances of old - simply aren't the social glue they once were.

 

[Ref_Ted]

Draw for Div 1 released. Any words from Newport on how they are shaping up for div 1?

Is there anywhere online to get a copy of the draw (or did you just mean the teams list)?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

That's a good summary of where we are.

As house prices creep up in Sydney, that line of affluence is going to move. The new areas that are opening belts of real estate are going to become progressively more challenging for all sports except cricket and soccer I'd say, due to the cultural makeup of the population moving there.

That may change over time, but generally requires kids from those cultures to have streams of influence like schools to light the fire.

The southwest is a wasteland for rugby. Campbelltown Harlequins are the outpost along with a couple of struggling junior clubs, from memory.

The current clubs in the top Divisions usually have 3 things in their favour:
1) Viable juniors program and/or school association.
2) Access to facilities with the support of local governing bodies (or at least no interference)
3) A history of more than 30 years.

You can have one of these things but not necessarily be successful. Being in older suburbs is definitely a help as the population tends to be less transient.

Our experience in the Northwest is that we don't have Old Boys - partly due to being less than 20 years old, and partly due to the nature of the 'burbs: when people reach a certain age, they sell up and move out. Not as easy to get volunteers when the surrounding areas are often waiting rooms for retirement. And with WFH now common it is even more precarious.

It'll be interesting to see what the new Head Of Western Sydney Rugby can do to help with this sort of thing

Sportspeople: Head of Western Sydney - NSW Rugby Union

The role will lead the growth of Western Sydney and drive NSW Rugby’s Western Sydney Strategy

www.sportspeople.com.au

You also have Camden. But the point still stands.

 

[Pfitzy]

You also have Camden. But the point still stands.

True - they're not far from Campbelltown so I'm drawing a particular border

However, Camden haven't been Subbies in the same way Campbelltown were.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

True - they're not far from Campbelltown so I'm drawing a particular border

However, Camden haven't been Subbies in the same way Campbelltown were.

Have they ever been in the subbies competition? I'm fairly skeptical of the new HoR for Western Sydney role that's being created. Without someone able to provide vision and planning alongside some real resources (which would seem doubtful) or at least the ability to generate some kind of resources it just seems to be just giving someone something to tack onto their resume.

 

[Pfitzy]

Have they ever been in the subbies competition?

Camden? Don't think so but my experience is limited to about the last 20 years

 

[Pfitzy]

I'm fairly skeptical of the new HoR for Western Sydney role that's being created. Without someone able to provide vision and planning alongside some real resources (which would seem doubtful) or at least the ability to generate some kind of resources it just seems to be just giving someone something to tack onto their resume.

I think the first job should be helping connect the resources that already exist.

The eastern suburbs heartland has this almost by default, relying mostly on networks and individuals to make connections; this has been the undoing of some clubs when particular individual(s) aren't on the scene any more.

If you could get Juniors and Schools working together, it would help Seniors a lot.

Get a model that works, tweak it for different socioeconomic areas, and set it in motion. Five year plan at best, but if you could get the leftovers from league and Premier Colts to start playing Subbies for their local club, you'd be on a good path to helping the west.

There are no Colts sides at present between St Pats and Blue Mountains, except for Hawkesbury Valley to the far north of the M4 spine

 

[Strewthcobber]

What's the minimum number of players/sides/grades a club would need to have to get going in a subbies comp?

And then, realistically, how many volunteers putting in the effort to keep it going?

 

[Pfitzy]

What's the minimum number of players/sides/grades a club would need to have to get going in a subbies comp?

And then, realistically, how many volunteers putting in the effort to keep it going?

Fifth Division is one grade only for Sydney Subbies.

You need half a dozen volunteers minimum - to conform with regulations you need at least an executive + some general committee. However they tend to double up e.g. our VP runs the canteen at home games (in addition to cooking the brisket!)

When I see bigger clubs with a dozen involved including like someone to manage sponsorships, I turn green.

 

[footy_footy]

With the Div 1 draw sorted any idea when the Div 2-5 clubs will be confirmed/draw issued?

 

[Pfitzy]

With the Div 1 draw sorted any idea when the Div 2-5 clubs will be confirmed/draw issued?

I wouldn't expect anything concrete before late Feb for Div 2. I think we'll definitely have Briars, Shammies, Pats, UNSW and Forest in there, but the rest remains to be seen based on a few things this year:

1) Beecroft dropping Third Grade
2) Hills not having Colts
3) Epping's unusual season

You'd want someone like Irish to come up and make a go of it, if they can find a Colts solution. They've probably got enough for 3 Grades with good depth.

However, with 5 teams penned in and a lot of pencil marks, the draw is going to take some quick work from Subbies during preseason

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 3 this year was Valley, Knox, LCOIRFC, Merrylands, Old Barker, Oysters, Harlequins, Irish.

It also had several other clubs play their Colts in the Division (Wakehurst, Brothers, Mac Uni, Chatswood) due to gaps.

You could probably lock in the first three.
Merrylands should have started recruiting Colts mid-year to help grow their club, but probably get a lot of competition in that space from WSTB.
Old Barker are restarting Colts this year I've heard.
Oysters haven't really looked like growing or even wanting to grow; the JV with Dukes for 2nd Grade wasn't wildly successful from what I saw, and the Easts Colts thing is probably getting a bit old for some opponents.
Harlequins don't have Colts due to the challenges in that part of Sydney.
Irish also need Colts but could handle 2nd Div if they got them, so why stick around?

Maybe 1-2 clubs from 4th Division could come up and help fill any gaps. Penrith say they want 2 Grades + Colts which could help?

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 4 2024: Canterbury, Chatswood, Hornsby, Kings, ROBRs, Renegades, Wakehurst, Raptors

This is probably the most fluid of the Divisions right now, and has a big say in where clubs might end up.

Hornsby should be able to go up if they can get a Colts side together (I say that a lot!)
Raptors also want Colts and could go up to Div 3. enegades are in the same boat - I'll let you know mid-Feb how that's going

Chatswood had a good First Grade and would have been in the running if not for wet weather screwing them hard on catch-up games. Hopefully maintain 2 Grades + Colts but variability of their 2s might mean they don't opt for Div 3.

Canterbury had a very successful Second Grade, which IMHO was probably better than their First Grade. Culturally that often points to issues with player buy-in across the club, so not sure where that will end up.

Wakehurst had a few forfeits in 2nd Grade, particularly away from home. They technically still have a JV with Brothers who were running Colts separately to Wakehurst's Colts, which would have been an interesting dynamic.

Kings came up and tried their hardest but in terms of physicality and numbers they were struggling, and weren't able to run subs out of 2nd Grade a lot.

ROBRs might take the year to reset after a horror injury run and some resulting forfeits. There's a new level of engagement with the College tho which could help them in the longer term.

Maybe Penrith land here if the Colts recruitment doesn't work out.

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 5 2024: Balmain, Blacktown, Burraneer, Convicts, Georges River, Maccabi, Mac Uni, Manly Savers, North Cronulla, Oatley, St Ives

I know from speaking to them that Blacktown want 2 Grades back - they have good numbers and would be looking to Div 4.

Balmain are confident of starting Colts but are probably 1 Grade

St Ives were not certain starters this year and based on their social media it will be a hard-working off-season for them.

The rest of them I've not heard much about, altho I know Burra / Sea Lice tend to be settled on a single Grade, and with other local clubs like Oatley and GRR around, it makes a decent rivalry.

Manly Savers are The One That Got Away. So much potential built up in recent years and really should be running hot in Third Div by now.

 

[Here To Do]

Going through the annual report last year I found these numbers (including Halligans, hence why Blueys have 8 grades)

It's a bit concerning that many clubs are struggling with Colts, even more so with the grades. Div 3 only having 2 clubs with 3 senior grades is worrying, especially with those clubs not having Colts at all.

Kings in Div 4 fielding 3 grades at any point is a bit of a pleasant surprise, as well as LCOI, Harbour and Knox able to field 2+1 in Div 3.

I really do think Subbies will need to reassess the competition formats and divisional makeup at some point. My first thought is looking at the gulf in clubs that do have Colts and those who don't. Where things get tricky is at a club like Hills, where they didn't have Colts this year but have in previous years, presumably because many of them aged out into other grades. Epping are in a similar boat but I'm less inclined to be lenient to them given they forfeited 1s all season but began fielding (and won) 4ths.

8x8 is becoming more difficult as the gulf between D1 and everyone else continues to grow - the issues have also begun to creep up from D3 clubs fielding their own Colts competition a few years ago (except for Quins who had Easts) to now having D3 struggling for a Colts at all and D2 missing 2 clubs. You just hope we don't get to a point where D2 Colts get any worse than they were this season because at this rate we could have 16 clubs in D2-D3 with only 8 Colts sides.