Sydney Subbies 2015

[barbarian]

Yeah it's a tough one, with no easy answers. Blokes are going to chase premierships, and if that means playing down the grades then it's very hard to stop.

You can't add more games as an eligibility requirement, because that just discriminates against genuine low graders who get injured or go on holidays or work some weekends.

Maybe you institute a rule that more than 3 starts in a high grade disqualifies you from finals in the grade two below? Eg you start 3 2nd grade games and then can't play 4ths. But would that just discriminate against guys who back up for their club when numbers are low? Or guys who fall down the grades legitimately due to poor form or injury?

It's a problem, though. My 4ths got beaten in the GF the last two years with sides featuring players that didn't face us in the two regular season encounters, who were clearly of 1st or 2nd grade standard.

Regardless of ability all of our players have played 4ths all year.
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[Pfitzy]

The first step was carbon copy sheets - not foolproof by any means, but got teams thinking a little more about how to circumvent it.

I think if we're going to get serious about it then the ground marshal's jobs have to be more rigorously practised in conjunction with the photo ID I mentioned above.

It would be a small move to change the printed sheets to include a column for time substitutes were made, and have that entered into the system as part of the sheet and double-checked from the opponent's side. At that point you let the system work out who is eligible for what grade, based on minutes, and goes from there. Apply statistics and weighting to ensure its a fair go.

Am I over-complicating matters? Maybe, but these issues keep coming up, and we have the technology to do something about it.

 

[barbarian]

That is pretty complicated, though. Our club barely has the manpower to fill out our own team sheets, let alone work out the timings of subs and checking what the opposition is up to.

But it is too easy to manipulate team sheets, that is for sure.
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[barbarian]

How about this: you are forced in finals to field the players that have played the most in each position for you throughout the year. And if they can't play, then it's the next highest amount, and so on.

It might not eliminate the gun players from the finals, but it could mean they have to start from the bench.

The issue as it stands is gun players playing 4 games at the end of the season once they know their 1s or 2s chances are shot. They knock out the bloke who has been slaving away for the first 10-12 games. We want the latter, not the former playing finals. So if the guns want to play, they have to commit to at least half the season.

It's not foolproof, and would be hard to police. But it's not the worst idea.
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[boyo]

Yep. AR1 qualified until end of next year from memory. Did the online refresher this year.

Well done you.
In my POV there seem to be many who think "I'll let someone else do that"

 

[Sideline]

Any ideas on how to salvage semi finals creditibility in subbies. To see 1st graders running around in 2s and 3s impacting scorelines and sending 'real' teams who have played together all year out is very dispiriting.

Any specific Heavyd ???

Stacking has always been a problem and I am not too sure what can be done, but Subbies do need to consider options, both during the season and during final rounds.

Maybe the last 4 rounds need to be ignored for qualification purposes. Clubs are unlikely to stack lower teams until they know that the higher teams cannot make the semis and with last 4 rounds many teams are still a chance at the semis.

 

[Pfitzy]

Well done you.
In my POV there seem to be many who think "I'll let someone else do that"

It sucks as 2nd Grade coach though - as one of 2 qualified ARs in the club, the other being a 3rd Grade regular, its difficult for me to run it for 3rds, get someone else at halftime while I warm my blokes up, then have to give it a "well played chaps, gotta go run the flag for Firsts!" setup.

So next year, I will be getting the committee to qualify a few other people from First Grade and Third Grade to make sure it happens.

2nd Grade = middle child syndrome

The issue as it stands is gun players playing 4 games at the end of the season once they know their 1s or 2s chances are shot. They knock out the bloke who has been slaving away for the first 10-12 games. We want the latter, not the former playing finals. So if the guns want to play, they have to commit to at least half the season.
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And while your idea is good, club culture should really eliminate this.

Of course, its only a bad look to the guy who gets knocked out of his team. To the other blokes, bringing down the first grade flyhalf looks like a fucking good idea, eh?

 

[Heavyd]

Maybe the last 4 rounds need to be ignored for qualification purposes. Clubs are unlikely to stack lower teams until they know that the higher teams cannot make the semis and with last 4 rounds many teams are still a chance at the semis.[/quote]


This idea may work. Hopefully it stops the situation where you come up against teams you had played less than a month ago which now only have 4 familiar faces.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

One round to go in 1st Div!

1 Point between 3rd and 6th!

Knox at home against Iggies, should get win and 4 try bonus point!
Brothers at home against the Dirty Reds
Mosman away to Balmain
Colleagues with the bye

So correct me if i am wrong but Colleagues season must be over as they don't get any points for the bye? They must be mad that Brothers can forfeit every grade but then come out and win first grade and keep their chances alive! There should be rule that if you forfeit multiple grades then you can't play first grade!

I'm predicting that it will turn out

1. Balmain
2. Drummoyne
3. Knox
4. Mosman

I think brothers will come 5th! In saying that Brothers will come out fighting and probably shock Drummoyne and take 3rd spot meaning the whales will miss out!


Well done to Bobbies 1st grade with a last minute win against HH!

Was shocked that Forest turned their late season slump around to beat Newport! But well done to the men in green. I hope they knock over HH!

 

[Seagull Butler]

One round to go in 1st Div!

Well done to Bobbies 1st grade with a last minute win against HH!

Was shocked that Forest turned their late season slump around to beat Newport! But well done to the men in green. I hope they knock over HH!

Ta mate....

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Ta mate..

Take it as a sign of respect your 1st grade side have been the best team all year!

 

[Rugby Central]

Any specific Heavyd ???

Stacking has always been a problem and I am not too sure what can be done, but Subbies do need to consider options, both during the season and during final rounds.

Maybe the last 4 rounds need to be ignored for qualification purposes. Clubs are unlikely to stack lower teams until they know that the higher teams cannot make the semis and with last 4 rounds many teams are still a chance at the semis.

Probably the best option because Clubs would have to hobble their top grades to pull it off.

The problem of lower grade players being replaced is the curse of unintended consequences when the culture is strong. Counter-intuitive I know. But the guys running around in 3's and 4's are usually the Clubmen. These guys don't care about being replaced for the benefit of the Club. Most are wiley enough to extract free beers for their sacrifice and know that they're still part of the team, even off the field.

If the team wins, they're part of the set-up, if they lose, they're absolved of responsibility. All while having beers with their mates, watching rugby and resting the old bones at the end of winter. Wins all round some might say.

Would never happen if the culture was weak because players would walk.

So probably removing the last 4 games from qualification would make the difference.

 

[SteveMerrick]

If Brothers forfeited all grades except Colts and 1st Grade it would have to be a first time that has ever happened in Division 1. Poor outcome for the competition and obviously disappointing for Colleagues - not sure where Subbies go to from here as this year there was to be no relegation in Div 1 but a number of clubs have been struggling with numbers in lower grades with plenty of forfeits being recorded. A look through the divisions shows plenty of former powerhouse clubs down on their luck with no real hope of revival.

 

[Pfitzy]

Reduce the number of grades. Simples

 

[Ozzie Bob]

If Brothers forfeited all grades except Colts and 1st Grade it would have to be a first time that has ever happened in Division 1. Poor outcome for the competition and obviously disappointing for Colleagues - not sure where Subbies go to from here as this year there was to be no relegation in Div 1 but a number of clubs have been struggling with numbers in lower grades with plenty of forfeits being recorded. A look through the divisions shows plenty of former powerhouse clubs down on their luck with no real hope of revival.

Well its time to really dig deep and ask clubs what they want to do!

Iggies have a proud history in Div 1, they are normally always strong in the lower grades and colts. Has it just been a tough year and next year they will bounce back?

Brothers should be made to stay in 1st division as the drop back one division will just see them win first grade when they shouldn't be 2nd division.

BUT!

If both Brothers and Iggies want to drop down what do you do then?

Lindfield have had a great season, their 2nd grade team are into the preliminary final, Their colts are in the grand final, and their 3rd grade team were minor premiers and are in the preliminary final. However their first grade team didnt make the semis and a step up into 1st Division might be a step too far!

Forest came second by one first grade result. Their first grade team is in the preliminary final, their second grade team are in the grand final and their 4th grade side were minor premiers and are in the preliminary final. However their colts team has had a tough few seasons and 1st division would be tough for them as a club.

In my honest opinion if both Iggies and Brothers wanted out of first division then Hills would be my club that i would suggest to go up to 1st division. They have the numbers and have two teams in preliminary finals and one in the grand final.

1st division could look very different next year!

 

[Heavyd]

Ozzie Bob I'm not sure there is any benefit in keeping a 2 or 3 grade club in 1st Div.
Both Iggies and Brothers are only currently capable of fielding 3 teams.

Ill state the obvious one more time for the dummies. There are too many grades in each DIv and subbies are oblivious of the strength of the game outside Colleagues, Balmain, Mosman and Drumoyne.

My tip is in 2016 Brothers and Iggies will join a combined div 2/3 competition of 16 rounds with KOBS and Hawkesbury Valley going to 4th Div. Lindfield will go up to make an 8 team Div 1. The Top 8 from the one off hybrid comp will form Div 2 in 2017. The comp should be 3 grades + over 35s + colts.

 

[Sideline]

Probably the best option because Clubs would have to hobble their top grades to pull it off.

The problem of lower grade players being replaced is the curse of unintended consequences when the culture is strong. Counter-intuitive I know. But the guys running around in 3's and 4's are usually the Clubmen. These guys don't care about being replaced for the benefit of the Club. Most are wiley enough to extract free beers for their sacrifice and know that they're still part of the team, even off the field.

If the team wins, they're part of the set-up, if they lose, they're absolved of responsibility. All while having beers with their mates, watching rugby and resting the old bones at the end of winter. Wins all round some might say.

Would never happen if the culture was weak because players would walk.

So probably removing the last 4 games from qualification would make the difference.

You are right on the mark. There are still a number of clubs in high divisions that do not have the full club culture and I could see a few players throwing the tantrum and walking away from the club.

A lot needs to be done to build or rebuild the right culture for clubs to be sustainable with subbies desire for multiple grades particularly in the top divisions.

The number of teams in each division really needs to be re-examined.

 

[Sideline]

Well its time to really dig deep and ask clubs what they want to do!

In my honest opinion if both Iggies and Brothers wanted out of first division then Hills would be my club that i would suggest to go up to 1st division. They have the numbers and have two teams in preliminary finals and one in the grand final.

1st division could look very different next year!

I understand what you are saying Ozzie Bob, but your suggestion of Hills going up to Div 1 could be a stretch. The club has good numbers but may well not be competitive at that level throughout the grades.

Then with non competitive sides you may be more likely to lose players and create the same problem as some of the other current Div 1 clubs.

Personally, I think a club like Hills needs a little time to consolidate itself in Div 2, but of course that is a personal view.

Clearly some of the ideas thrown out by people on GnG are worth consideration......look at the numbers of teams in each Division as a starting point and consider creating a "Masters" competition, but played at the same ground as the Club's other teams each week.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Ozzie Bob I'm not sure there is any benefit in keeping a 2 or 3 grade club in 1st Div.
Both Iggies and Brothers are only currently capable of fielding 3 teams.

Ill state the obvious one more time for the dummies. There are too many grades in each DIv and subbies are oblivious of the strength of the game outside Colleagues, Balmain, Mosman and Drumoyne.

My tip is in 2016 Brothers and Iggies will join a combined div 2/3 competition of 16 rounds with KOBS and Hawkesbury Valley going to 4th Div. Lindfield will go up to make an 8 team Div 1. The Top 8 from the one off hybrid comp will form Div 2 in 2017. The comp should be 3 grades + over 35s + colts.

Really? Could you imagine Brothers 1st grade playing against Oatley and St Ives? (No disrespect intended) They are more than holding their own in Kentwell to come down against these guys who are playing for the love of it is a joke!

Ive said it once, but i really think Div 1 could look like this next year

1. Colleagues
2. Balmain
3. Drummoyne
4. St Pats
5. Petersham
6. Knox

** Cant see Lindfield wanting to go up a division, it had them on their knees last time!

**** If i was in charge i would let Iggies go to Div 2, make Brothers stay up and promote Forest and Lindfield. The problem for clubs promoted to Div 1 is the jump in standard and a lack of winnable games. If you had Brothers, Forest, Lindfield and Petersham in the same comp then there is a chance for clubs to win games and keep the morale up.


2nd Div COULD look like this:
1. Newport
2. Forest
3. BOBS
4. BEECROFT
5. Hunters Hill
6. Lindfield
7. Hills
8. Brothers
9. Iggies
10. Blue Mountains

3rd Div
1. Epping
2. Redfield
3. Waverley
4. UNSW
5. Oatley
6. UWSH
7. St Ives
8. Kings

4th Div
1. Hawkesbury Valley
2. Canterbury
3. Blacktown
4. Briars
5. Sydney Irish
6. Sydney Harlequins
7. Rouse Hill
8. Colleagues Convicts

5th Div
1. Mac Uni
2. Merrylands
********** The rest of them i have no idea if they could sustain two teams!

Makes letting Hornsby and Campbelltown seem rather silly now doesnt it! Plus no team further west in Kentwell than Strathfield!

 

[Pfitzy]

Drop the 4th and 5th Grades as compulsory, and stop flogging clubs to death.

The end.