Sydney Subbies 2014

[Pfitzy]

Agree with that approach. 4th and 5th (and the equivalent in other divisions) is the foundation of what Subbies is all about. You don't want to erode that. Clubs also need to take more responsibility for their respective highs and lows. Easy to throw your hands up and yell at Subbies but ultimately they can only structure competitions based on what each club indicates as their playing base.

Why not back up the claim of administrative brilliance and get the guys at Mosman to work with Blacktown, Rouse Hill or Hornsby for the good of the game. Actually that's not a bad idea. What came out as a glib verbal fart could possibly have merit. Maybe those Clubs across Sydney could lend a hand to those Clubs that need help. It's not like their even in close divisions so it can only benefit the game.

Thoughts anyone?

Addressing both these points at once:

There are very few non-Old Boys clubs west of Lane Cove Road that can handle 3 Grades, let alone 4 or 5.

When 50-60% of your playing numbers work Saturday mornings they can't make a game before 1PM - midday if you're lucky. Further, if you have a lot of guys working shifts at night, they can't make training. So you're competitiveness is just not there compared to a club fielding a majority of white collar players who train together or know each others' game well from time spent in junior ranks.

So on Saturday, some players don't show up, you can either send on 11 people for your lowest grade and cop a flogging on the scoreboard and physically, or forfeit. And of course, Subbies punishes multiple forfeits unless you just straight out tell them you can't field that grade any more. Then watch those blokes question whether they even want to be there.

Once they're gone, and you start to pick up injuries, then it just snowballs to the point where you drive across town, knowing you might have to forfeit 2nd grade, and get a text from the First Grade coach saying he's busy drinking with half the backline because fucked if he's driving halfway to Wollongong just to cop a flogging.

Yes there is a lot of responsibility for clubs to bear, but explain how a club is responsible when a whole grade just walks off to another club because one of their mates is playing there? Or they got spotted by a league team who is going to pay them? Or because they don't pay their rego but keep getting free beer on the promise that they would? And shit you can't just boot them because pre-season looked like three grades, so you need to keep these guys happy so that Subbies don't start bringing down punishments on you for forfeiting games.

 

[barbarian]

Agree with that approach. 4th and 5th (and the equivalent in other divisions) is the foundation of what Subbies is all about. You don't want to erode that. Clubs also need to take more responsibility for their respective highs and lows. Easy to throw your hands up and yell at Subbies but ultimately they can only structure competitions based on what each club indicates as their playing base.

Agree totally. And to bring it back to what Pfitzy was saying before, at Kings the guys that contribute the most are generally the guys in 3rds and 4ths, who back up to run the BBQ or touch-judge after their game is complete, where the 1st graders tend to swan in 40 minutes before their game starts then knick off as soon as the full time whistle is blown.

I would like to see the contribution of the lower grade guys given more weight.
.

 

[Prodigy]

Agree totally. And to bring it back to what Pfitzy was saying before, at Kings the guys that contribute the most are generally the guys in 3rds and 4ths, who back up to run the BBQ or touch-judge after their game is complete, where the 1st graders tend to swan in 40 minutes before their game starts then knick off as soon as the full time whistle is blown.

I would like to see the contribution of the lower grade guys given more weight.
.

And then the buggers don't turn up to the opposition club's speeches because they book club events!

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

http://looseheadprop.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/match-day-program-20140510.pdf

Match day program for Div 6 subbies game Alexandria v Maccabi. This is what can be done if you are willing to put the effort in. A great program

 

[Pfitzy]

And then the buggers don't turn up to the opposition club's speeches because they book club events!

Everyone is under pressure to support their sponsor - well those who don't have a licenced clubhouse on the premises. Get back to the club's pub for a few beers etc but when you have to drive halfway across Sydney is a bit tough. Plus family commitments etc

 

[Prodigy]

Everyone is under pressure to support their sponsor - well those who don't have a licenced clubhouse on the premises. Get back to the club's pub for a few beers etc but when you have to drive halfway across Sydney is a bit tough. Plus family commitments etc

Not sure it is as big a drama as you play it up to be, Pfitzy.
I suppose it depends on what you want your opposition to do when they attend your home games.

 

[Whale berry]

It might be bugger all to the CC points on the day but 300 as a punishment come the end of the season can really hurt.

Interesting how someone from a club where there's no competition from other codes, in rugby heartland and more money from a single fundraising dinner than most clubs see in a decade, like to lecture about good administration. I've met many of those running Mosman - even played there - and they are truely brilliant. But as brilliant as they are, I would like to see them survive so well if Council kicked them off Rawson to make way for a development, or had to compete for players against 10 Leagues Clubs with cashed up pokies or an ever growing population who's culture is not only ignorant of rugby but hostile to it. This has nothing to do with the great administration of Mosman Rugby, but please don't insult the efforts of those volunteers who flog themselves without all the privilages and connection that some clubs have.

Why not back up the claim of administrative brilliance and get the guys at Mosman to work with Blacktown, Rouse Hill or Hornsby for the good of the game. Actually that's not a bad idea. What came out as a glib verbal fart could possibly have merit. Maybe those Clubs across Sydney could lend a hand to those Clubs that need help. It's not like their even in close divisions so it can only benefit the game.

Thoughts anyone?

I certainly wasn't bagging the guys who do it tough, nor was I claiming that Mosman is " administratively brilliant".

I was simply stating a fact the on field performances generally reflect off field performance.

I can't speak for the Mosman administration but I am sure if someone from another club asked for help on how to organise event X or whatever I am sure they would help.

 

[Whale berry]

I

Addressing both these points at once:

There are very few non-Old Boys clubs west of Lane Cove Road that can handle 3 Grades, let alone 4 or 5.

When 50-60% of your playing numbers work Saturday mornings they can't make a game before 1PM - midday if you're lucky. Further, if you have a lot of guys working shifts at night, they can't make training. So you're competitiveness is just not there compared to a club fielding a majority of white collar players who train together or know each others' game well from time spent in junior ranks.

So on Saturday, some players don't show up, you can either send on 11 people for your lowest grade and cop a flogging on the scoreboard and physically, or forfeit. And of course, Subbies punishes multiple forfeits unless you just straight out tell them you can't field that grade any more. Then watch those blokes question whether they even want to be there.

Once they're gone, and you start to pick up injuries, then it just snowballs to the point where you drive across town, knowing you might have to forfeit 2nd grade, and get a text from the First Grade coach saying he's busy drinking with half the backline because fucked if he's driving halfway to Wollongong just to cop a flogging.

Yes there is a lot of responsibility for clubs to bear, but explain how a club is responsible when a whole grade just walks off to another club because one of their mates is playing there? Or they got spotted by a league team who is going to pay them? Or because they don't pay their rego but keep getting free beer on the promise that they would? And shit you can't just boot them because pre-season looked like three grades, so you need to keep these guys happy so that Subbies don't start bringing down punishments on you for forfeiting games.

I acknowledge it must be tough with guys working on Sat morning to get them to play lower grades.
I don't have an answer for that other than ( if you can access another ground) arrange to play a lower grade later in the day.
Most clubs with a bit of notice are happy to oblige.

 

[barbarian]

And then the buggers don't turn up to the opposition club's speeches because they book club events!

Haha don't blame me mate, I'm a million miles away!

But what Pfitzy says is true, we are under pressure from our pub to keep turnover high and continually have events to keep our sponsorship.
.

 

[Pfitzy]

Not sure it is as big a drama as you play it up to be, Pfitzy.
I suppose it depends on what you want your opposition to do when they attend your home games.

I played out at Rouse Hill for five years - we often understood that teams couldn't stick around because of travel concerns, and getting back to their own sponsor or clubhouse. The only time we hosted other clubs was when the games finished early (one day we had to forfeit First Grade, and the other time First Grade was cut short due to numbers from the visitors).

Likewise, it was nearly impossible for us to stick around because we had family events or our own club sponsors to support.

Any club would love to have the old days where they sit around afterwards with a beer, but its just not possible for some clubs outside the eastern suburbs. Go look at a distribution map of clubs in each Division - there is the odd outlier like Blue Mountains or Campbelltown in the top divisions, but mostly its a pretty tame drive. A lot of clubs in the east start getting antsy when they have to pay tolls...

 

[JSRF10]

2 good wins in 1sts and 2nds for Irish today against Blacktown, lost 21-7 in 3rds but had to play the game with 14 due to a lack of props on our part. After a few disappointing results it was good to get the year back on track for first grade.

 

[Tommy Tudehope]

2 good wins in 1sts and 2nds for Irish today against Blacktown, lost 21-7 in 3rds but had to play the game with 14 due to a lack of props on our part. After a few disappointing results it was good to get the year back on track for first grade.

Heard there was some drama in the 1st Grade match? A few cards? Good win. Blacktown a quality opposition.

 

[Heavyd]

The current situation we have is that only 7 teams in the entire subbies comp can field 5 teams + colts. Im not sure it would be dragging down to the lowest denominator if it was 4 teams + colts. Lets look at the facts,
last weekend there were only two Halligans cup games played. The gaps between the haves and have nots in each Div are widening...scores of 80-15 in Kentwell Cup and 64-5 in Barraclough tell me the competition is not as rosy as some of us believe. I dont have the answers and I'm certainly not blaming subbies. I'm just saying lets have an honest conversation about our code and acknowledge that potentially outside of a handful of strong clubs that the code does not have the player pool it once did and historical competition make ups may not be the future.

 

[Whale berry]

You make some good points, Hevyd.
I wonder if the issue of player payments over the years has contributed to this situation.
Particularly when you read about whole teams moving on in return for payments.
Just looking at the 5th grade Div 1 table and 3 out the 4 top teams, who have always had a 5th grade and generally had Haligan cup teams fall into the not paying players clubs.
Don't know if there is a correlation or not.

My main gripe is if a team starts the year in 1st div or any other for that matter, you are committing to field the required number of teams for the year.
Of course injuries can affect, I don't have problem with the odd team having to forfeit the odd game (although I have played with and against many teams who double up and in some cases triple up in order to fulfil their commitment) but to pull out of the comp entirely after a couple of rounds stinks.

I also have to confess that only ever playing in the old Second division and Subbies Div 1, I havnt had the experiences of many of the guys involved in smaller clubs in the lower divisions.

 

[Tommy Tudehope]

You make some good points, Hevyd.
I wonder if the issue of player payments over the years has contributed to this situation.
Particularly when you read about whole teams moving on in return for payments.
Just looking at the 5th grade Div 1 table and 3 out the 4 top teams, who have always had a 5th grade and generally had Haligan cup teams fall into the not paying players clubs.
Don't know if there is a correlation or not.

My main gripe is if a team starts the year in 1st div or any other for that matter, you are committing to field the required number of teams for the year.
Of course injuries can affect, I don't have problem with the odd team having to forfeit the odd game (although I have played with and against many teams who double up and in some cases triple up in order to fulfil their commitment) but to pull out of the comp entirely after a couple of rounds stinks.

I also have to confess that only ever playing in the old Second division and Subbies Div 1, I havnt had the experiences of many of the guys involved in smaller clubs in the lower divisions.

It's more difficult in the lower divisions. If you are only fielding two or three teams and get hit by injuries it can really hurt you. Inevitably you will have players out of position and playing higher than they normally would or like to. Having said that Subbies has made it quite clear in the past that if you want to move up and field an additional team you have to have the requisite amount of players (and props).

 

[JSRF10]

Heard there was some drama in the 1st Grade match? A few cards? Good win. Blacktown a quality opposition.

Blacktown has 2 yellows and a red in first grade and their coach got ordered off the ground. Irish were probably lucky not to get a card or too themselves, things got a bit heated off the ball at times. They were lucky not to have a least another yellow and red (one of the yellows was for a spear tackle early on). They suffered from indiscipline in the seconds as well. They are a very good side so it was good for the 1sts to get their season back on track with a win.

 

[Whale berry]

It is almost as though you need a different approach for the big clubs in 1st and 2nd divisions and another approach for the smaller clubs in the lower divisions.
I guess the motivations and operations of a 2 team club (bunch of guys from school, the pub, church wherever) is very different to those of larger clubs (which I guess are sub district in the strict interpretation that they are generally one step down from the district clubs).

Not saying one is better than the other, they are just very different.

One thing I have always admired about subbies is that anyone can get a team together and play in an organised comp.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

I think the thing to remember is that everything goes in cycles.

I will use my club Barker Old Boys an an example. For about 4 years 2000-2003 we were really struggling. Knox even offered to merge with us as they were struggling. 5 years latter and we were in 1st Div.

Look at Brothers, couple of years ago they were in 4th Div. Now pushing to be in 1st Div.

I think clubs west of Lane Cove Road need a lot of help with numbers and support.

Time to throw open all the divisions and let people apply to where they want to play!

Is it also time to do regions comps????

How good would it be to have a comp looking like this

(1) Campbelltown
(2) Blue Mountains
(3) Blacktown
(4) Hawkesbury
(5) UWS Hawkesbury
(6) Merrylands
(7) Rouse Hill
(8) Dundas Valley

Cut down on a lot of travel for some clubs!

 

[Pfitzy]

Look at Brothers, couple of years ago they were in 4th Div. Now pushing to be in 1st Div.

And when their huge pile of money is gone?

 

[Rugby Central]

Is it also time to do regions comps????

Cut down on a lot of travel for some clubs!

Yes it is but everyone must be prepared for the pain or support must be given to lower division clubs to attract players. Otherwise When Dundas get smahed by a thousand in rouund 1 by Campbelltown you might find few guys turning up for round 2.

There will be some serious trauma to make it happen. But it should happen.

As long as the Western Sydney Clubs are disadvantaged through travel - not to mention lack of teams sticking around to bolster the bar/bbq revenue - then the game will continually limp along norrowly avoiding death.

The other thing is it must be driven by the Clubs. Becasue even well meaning administrators, far removed from the reality of running Clubs out west, might struggle to understand that it can still take up to an hour to get from Campbelltown Showground to Lapstone Oval