Sydney Junior Rugby Union - 2013

[Rugby Mum]

Did you get out to the 7 s tournament yesterday HJ. Great day of rugby, with some new talent about.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Ummm ... Opens Schoolboys is Under 18's. They still play IRB Under 19 rules.

Colts are age limited. IIRC Colts 3 are Under 19 Age graded and play Under 19 Varioation rules, and Colts 1 and 2 are Age graded to Under 20 (Shute Shield) and Under 21 in NSW Subbies. The later play Full international IRB Rugby Laws, ie crutch binding, scrums moving more than 1.5 metres etc.

The blanket "signoff" that may have "existed" last year for 15 year olds to play in Under 18 schoolboy division at a specific competition would probably not apply under different affiliation jurisdictions.

I am sure that the Pirates Colts management know what they are doing, and everything will probably be above board, it just seems a little unusual to have a 16 year old boy playing against 20 year old men.

HJ, I started my Colts adventure while I was still just 16, same level and all. I did turn 17 early into the season but some are capable.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I note that WCR but ARU have introduced a 2 year Window since then. There are very strict criteria, assessments and parental approvals that need to be followed under the 2 year up window.

Pretty sure that 3 years up has been prohibited by ARU (and their insurance company).

 

[rugby convert]

Ummm ... Opens Schoolboys is Under 18's. They still play IRB Under 19 rules.

Colts are age limited. IIRC Colts 3 are Under 19 Age graded and play Under 19 Varioation rules, and Colts 1 and 2 are Age graded to Under 20 (Shute Shield) and Under 21 in NSW Subbies. The later play Full international IRB Rugby Laws, ie crutch binding, scrums moving more than 1.5 metres etc.

The blanket "signoff" that may have "existed" last year for 15 year olds to play in Under 18 schoolboy division at a specific competition would probably not apply under different affiliation jurisdictions.

I am sure that the Pirates Colts management know what they are doing, and everything will probably be above board, it just seems a little unusual to have a 16 year old boy playing against 20 year old men.

Hugh
I am the dad of Tommy , we asked all the same question
before he played any games . West Harbour have been very
made sure everything was above board.
Originally he was supposed to start off in 3rd grade
but he has trained hard & played well enough
to get a start in 1st grade. Whether he will start
In 1st s when the season starts is up to the coaching staff.
As parents we will watch the situation with the coaches
& see how he goes .
Personally he needed the move from Illawarra.
The competition isn't very strong down here & needed the
challenge to make him a better player .

 

[rugby convert]

I note that WCR but ARU have introduced a 2 year Window since then. There are very strict criteria, assessments and parental approvals that need to be followed under the 2 year up window.

Pretty sure that 3 years up has been prohibited by ARU (and their insurance company).

Hugh
Also forgot to mention he turns 17 soon

 

[rugby convert]

Must be a blanket form that signed him off last year, in the 16 s playing an opens team- maybe the blanket sign off has not expired yet....

We were given ARU forms to fill in & sign
If there was a problem he wouldn't of been registered
As parents we will watch his ability to handle playing
at this standard.if we didn't think he could handle it
we wouldn't let him play

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I note that WCR but ARU have introduced a 2 year Window since then. There are very strict criteria, assessments and parental approvals that need to be followed under the 2 year up window.

Pretty sure that 3 years up has been prohibited by ARU (and their insurance company).

That would have disqualified both myself and my brother who actually started at an even younger age of 15. Mind you a 6'4 100+ kg 15 y.o.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hee Hee a bit like trying to keep Will Skelton is his own age group.

IIRC he was 130kg or thereabout in his final year at Hills Sports. Be surprised if he wasn't in the vicinity of 110 + kg as a 15 yo as well.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Hee Hee a bit like trying to keep Will Skelton is his own age group.

IIRC he was 130kg or thereabout in his final year at Hills Sports. Be surprised if he wasn't in the vicinity of 110 + kg as a 15 yo as well.

We come in two sizes in my family. Big and bigger. I'm 6'0 and the shortest of the young men in my family. The average is actually 6'4. Saying that I'm the bulkiest. By 16 I was tipping the scale at 119kg and by 18 125kg. And no, I wasn't one of those jelly 125kg kids.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Did you get out to the 7 s tournament yesterday HJ. Great day of rugby, with some new talent about.

Dropped a couple of the Junior Jarses of and they enjoyed themselves. Had other things on. Sounds like a good day was held by all.

 

[CTPE]

I note that WCR but ARU have introduced a 2 year Window since then. There are very strict criteria, assessments and parental approvals that need to be followed under the 2 year up window.

Pretty sure that 3 years up has been prohibited by ARU (and their insurance company).

There's also a specific strength based assessment for props that play at
Opens level before they reach the required age.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

rugby convert, welcome to Gaggerland.

It is a pity that kids have to leave the "nest" to pursue rugby dreams. NSW country suffer particularly, but this has always been the case, and I can't see anything changing in the future.

There are two 2012 NSW Schools U16 lads from NSW Country attending QLD Schools. I presume that these will be eligible to represent QLD Schools. I have heard that several other NSW Country U16 representatives have similarly crossed the northern border. The AAGPS schools teams have plenty of borders from NSW Country who are "lost" to junior village club rugby. Your lad playing colts in Shute Shield will similarly be lost to NSW Country, and also technically NSW JRU rep selection.

I have maintained that there needs to be some form of rationalisation between Colts and SJRU in the Under 17, Opens and Colts 2/Colts 3 grades. 17 and 18 year old schoolboys playing Colts should not not be prevented from playing representative age group footy just because they are playing Colts Rugby.

I am aware of quite a few kids playing Colts who are eligible for SJRU Opens. They choose Colts because there is no viable village club in their local area, there is inadequate coaching available in the village club programme, no viable school competition, or they are capable of playing at the higher level and would not be challenged in the Juniors programme. It is not the kids fault that opportunities are not available in village clubland.


I just had a look at the ARU 2 Year Window FAQ and it states:

Can a player participate in an Age Grade competition more than two years above his or her age for their school/club?
Yes. In exceptional cases, where a player’s physical development, skill level and experience is such that he or she may be allowed to participate in an age grade competition that is more than two years and no greater than three years above his or her age.
A player wishing to participate in an age grade competition more than two years above his or her age should carefully consider the information in Schedule A of the Two Year Window Policy, complete the Consent Form including assessed by a Level 2 coach and submit to your Competition Manager.

http://www.rugby.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=NhTR2EXg08M=&tabid=1970

 

[sarcophilus]

Thanks HJ
Put a lot more politely than I am given to
There are a few lads that have grown up with village tribalism that couldn't bring themselves to fly a pennant for the enemy in the next suburb but identify with the senior club they have represented since u/10. The loophole that allows these lads an opportunity to continue to represent their club is valuable in these cases

Maybe an early season comp similar to the league comps s g ball and matt whatever would provide some sought of bridge for similarly inclined 16 to 18 year olds

 

[Inside Shoulder]

rugby convert, welcome to Gaggerland.

It is a pity that kids have to leave the "nest" to pursue rugby dreams. NSW country suffer particularly, but this has always been the case, and I can't see anything changing in the future.

There are two 2012 NSW Schools U16 lads from NSW Country attending QLD Schools. I presume that these will be eligible to represent QLD Schools. I have heard that several other NSW Country U16 representatives have similarly crossed the northern border. The AAGPS schools teams have plenty of borders from NSW Country who are "lost" to junior village club rugby. Your lad playing colts in Shute Shield will similarly be lost to NSW Country, and also technically NSW JRU rep selection.

I have maintained that there needs to be some form of rationalisation between Colts and SJRU in the Under 17, Opens and Colts 2/Colts 3 grades. 17 and 18 year old schoolboys playing Colts should not not be prevented from playing representative age group footy just because they are playing Colts Rugby.

I am aware of quite a few kids playing Colts who are eligible for SJRU Opens. They choose Colts because there is no viable village club in their local area, there is inadequate coaching available in the village club programme, no viable school competition, or they are capable of playing at the higher level and would not be challenged in the Juniors programme. It is not the kids fault that opportunities are not available in village clubland.


I just had a look at the ARU 2 Year Window FAQ and it states:

http://www.rugby.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=NhTR2EXg08M=&tabid=1970

HJ - good post.
There does seem to be a pipeline from joeys to hunters hill


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[rugby convert]

rugby convert, welcome to Gaggerland.

It is a pity that kids have to leave the "nest" to pursue rugby dreams. NSW country suffer particularly, but this has always been the case, and I can't see anything changing in the future.

There are two 2012 NSW Schools U16 lads from NSW Country attending QLD Schools. I presume that these will be eligible to represent QLD Schools. I have heard that several other NSW Country U16 representatives have similarly crossed the northern border. The AAGPS schools teams have plenty of borders from NSW Country who are "lost" to junior village club rugby. Your lad playing colts in Shute Shield will similarly be lost to NSW Country, and also technically NSW JRU rep selection.

I have maintained that there needs to be some form of rationalisation between Colts and SJRU in the Under 17, Opens and Colts 2/Colts 3 grades. 17 and 18 year old schoolboys playing Colts should not not be prevented from playing representative age group footy just because they are playing Colts Rugby.

I am aware of quite a few kids playing Colts who are eligible for SJRU Opens. They choose Colts because there is no viable village club in their local area, there is inadequate coaching available in the village club programme, no viable school competition, or they are capable of playing at the higher level and would not be challenged in the Juniors programme. It is not the kids fault that opportunities are not available in village clubland.


I just had a look at the ARU 2 Year Window FAQ and it states:

http://www.rugby.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=NhTR2EXg08M=&tabid=1970

HJ
My son was also Country No.9 last yr
Was awarded country back of the yr &
Was picked as a star player for country in u-16s
Nationals . Goes on tour with NSW CHS to NZ next week
So u might understand why he moved to Sydney
Instead of staying in the Illawarra where the comp /
coaching & training is limited

 

[B Frank]

I tried to register my 10 year old boy at 2 Randwick clubs and was told they were full. I was told that one boy had been trying to get into the club for 3 years. No boy should miss out. This is crazy I'm sold on the game but am forced into another sport. Registration should be centralized through a website run at state level. If teams are short they should be cobbled together like the way Auskickafl do.
Further it was mentioned that the pathway petres out at 16 because school rugby is so physical. Well then play it on Wednesday night to allow maximum recovery. If you then have a pathway that continues you will get a greater following.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I tried to register my 10 year old boy at 2 Randwick clubs and was told they were full. I was told that one boy had been trying to get into the club for 3 years. No boy should miss out. This is crazy I'm sold on the game but am forced into another sport. Registration should be centralized through a website run at state level. If teams are short they should be cobbled together like the way Auskickafl do.
Further it was mentioned that the pathway petres out at 16 because school rugby is so physical. Well then play it on Wednesday night to allow maximum recovery. If you then have a pathway that continues you will get a greater following.

Try easts - they usually play in the same places anyway.


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[Hugh Jarse]

I tried to register my 10 year old boy at 2 Randwick clubs and was told they were full. I was told that one boy had been trying to get into the club for 3 years. No boy should miss out. This is crazy I'm sold on the game but am forced into another sport. Registration should be centralized through a website run at state level. If teams are short they should be cobbled together like the way Auskickafl do.

Further it was mentioned that the pathway petres out at 16 because school rugby is so physical. Well then play it on Wednesday night to allow maximum recovery. If you then have a pathway that continues you will get a greater following.

Welcome aboard B frank.
I'll be even more frank with you.

I have heard of Coaches, Managers and Clubs claiming "the team is full", " the books are closed" etc to many parents who try to register new players, particularly if that child is new to rugby, or known (from the playground, sports ovals, little A's or nippers) as not being particularly athletic.

When Oliver All-Star's parents go to register little Oliver at the same club/team later than Peter Fat-Kidd, the team is suddenly unfull or the books are miraculously open.
Oliver All-Star will be known as having relatively good athletic skills either from mungoland, nippers, basketball, little A's or the like.
This situation is particularly prolific at under 11's to under 13's.

Why? This particularly insidious practice is related to the winning at all costs ego that should not be in junior sport but is rife in many clubs, particularly if they have had a taste of premiership footy the previous year. It is more evident in the East, South and West (Saturday competition).

The village clubs in the East South and West (Saturday competition) typically only have one team per age group, and their competitions are also typically one grade. In the North (Sunday Competition), there are a variety of grades available to suit the player skill level, and clubs often have a second team in the age group that can accommodate the "new to rugby" players.
Peter Fat-Kid can be seem as hard work/difficult/distracting for a coach (or parent group) hell bent on repeating their ego stroking premiership winning performance from the last season. Oliver All-Star is viewed as the opposite and “exceptions” are made for him.

After Under 13’s, a lot of SJRU players are lost due to the impact of School rugby. Playing Sunday competition helps, but for many this introduces scheduling conflicts for the Duel Coders, and many coaches and managers become desperate for kids to fill their roster. Unfortunately by then the Peter Fat-Kid’s have found other sporting and recreational activities to pursue. Sadly puberty is often kind to many Peter Fat-Kids, who end up as great athletes in their new (non-rugby) endeavours. Conversely many Oliver All-Star’s either lose their previous skills advantages or are made unavailable to rugby as they get placed in cotton wool by their school, mungo club or summer sport future elite pathway programme.

There are two other outcomes if the Club/Team are being fair dinkum about the books being full. If they keep the books open, they could end up with a roster that has so many kids on it that the playing time available for your boy is severely restricted due to the manager trying to get all 28 kids on the team list equal time on the field each week. Some teams actually have their players rostered off on a rotation basis. This works well for certain families within Inside Shoulders realm during the ski season. Alternatively the kid that they turn away because their books are full (or nearly full) may register with another club and could be the difference between that club being able to field a viable team or not.

Don’t take no for an answer. As Inside Shoulder has said, they all generally play at the similar ovals, and there will be travel involved. If the other Randwick clubs don’t want your boy, try Easts, or even Canterbury, Petersham (Uni) or Balmain, West Juniors (Wests) or Rockdale (Souths). These clubs aren’t all that far from Randwick.

Regarding the “Pathway” petering out at Under 16’s. You are kind of right. It does get a little confusing after Under 16’s as Schools and Juniors fight for player numbers. The CAS/ISA/GPS Private Schools tend to win this battle, leaving the State Schools and the non CAS/GPS/ISA Private schools to go to a weakened Under 17/Opens competition or Colts.

As many on these threads have pointed out, not all that many kids (late developers) get a look in from the talent scouts if they are not “noticed” as 15 year olds at the Under 16 championships. The relatively weaker competitions at Sydney Juniors Under 17 and Opens level does not help the kid who was overlooked at U16 level get noticed. Selection for CHS or CCC for the open Schoolboys competition can help, but most of the eyes are focused on the “known” stars and the GPS, and CAS teams.

This kind of leads into the starting post for this thread. Colts, Juniors and Schools are all trying to get their hands on tomorrows Waratahs and Wallabies. There needs to be some rationalisation.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

A well positioned snout has told me that references to the Two Year Window are only applicable to Junior (Schoolboy) rugby.

Colts are considered Senior Rugby and there is a separate (but very similar) policy that covers "juniors" (kids under 18 years of age) who want to play senior rugby. This policy is sensibly called “Senior Rugby Policy”.

Find all about this policy here.
http://www.rugby.com.au/tryrugby/Administration/SeniorRugbyPolicy.aspx


From the ARU Senior Rugby Policy FAQ
"......./..snip.../.....
Can a player Under 18 years play Senior rugby?
In exceptional cases, a player’s physical development, skill level and experience may be such that he or she may be allowed to participate in senior rugby competitions at an age younger than 18 years of age.

A player wishing to participate in a senior rugby competition at an age younger than eighteen years of age should carefully consider the information in Schedule A of the Senior Rugby Policy, complete the Consent Form including assessed by a Level 2 coach and submit to your Competition Manager.

Is there a minimum age to play Senior rugby?
As per the Policy, in exceptional cases, a player’s physical development, skill level and experience may be such that he or she may be allowed to participate in senior rugby competitions at an age younger than eighteen years of age. Applications need to be assessed based on the merit of each player against the criteria stipulated and ultimately the decision is up to those making the assessment of a particular individual.

The ARU believes it would be unlikely for a player under the age of 17 to have the physical development and experience to meet the criteria, however we acknowledge there may be exceptions and therefore as noted above the decision needs to be made by those assessing a particular player
......./..snip.../....."


Essentially there doesn’t seem to be too much of an issue for 17 year olds playing Colts, and the occasional 16 year old could meet the criteria.


All my previous talk about Under 19 Laws for Colts 3 meaning that this is age graded and Open Rugby Laws for Colts 2 and 1 are a red herring, albeit very elegantly and logically argued on my behalf if I must say so myself.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Is this your own private thread HJ?
Should we send for a doctor?