Super Rugby Round 4, 2018 - Jaguares vs Waratahs @ Buenos Aires

[TOCC]

The problem then as now with the backrow is a lack of balance. I was very happy to see Simmons recruited as his set piece is one of the most solid in Australia, but having him there necessitated retaining Skelton and another field impact lock as Simmons has zero effective work away from the scrum & lineout.

These are facts that have been pretty evident since 2015. 3 years on the 2nd row has not been addressed, the back row degraded from impact and effective workrate players like Jackpot and Palu and importantly the combination with the others like Hooper, Dennis, Mumm. Now we have starting three very similar players and ineffective 2nd rowers and until the Jaguares game two hookers in the same mould. Is it any wonder that the Tahs forwards struggle to make the gain line let alone get over it, and then struggle to maintain possession.

The sucession planning at lock has been poorly handled, In that time frame you have mentioned Australian U20's players; Rodda, Tui, Hockings, Blyth, Hosea, Swain and Ha'angana have all been signed up to contracts with the other 3 oz Super Rugby clubs. 3 of those players were from NSW originally that other clubs went out and recruited from interstate. Granted they have signed McCauley who i think is a quality young player.

 

[Braveheart81]

Thought Wells was probably the best forward in a blue jumper.

The backrow were definitely the best component of the forward pack.

 

[KiwiM]

Thought Wells was probably the best forward in a blue jumper.



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When Wells is your best performing forward you are in big trouble.

From a neutral's perspective I thought the winning of the game was the Jags winning the gainline with ease in the first half. They had their tails up after the early try and were just able to consistently get front foot ball across the advantage line - that meant their offloads could stick and Tahs were constantly on the back foot. Under these new breakdown laws defending is particularly hard when you are on the back foot - you need to be able to stone wall's teams at the gain line with big defense.

The Tahs defense up until this game had been improved on last year but the first half in this game it was back to 2017 levels.

While it is tempting to pile on, speaking as a Blues fan a lot can change in one week in this competition - Rebels Tahs next week should be a great test for both sides.

 

[Hawko]

The sucession planning at lock has been poorly handled, In that time frame you have mentioned Australian U20's players; Rodda, Tui, Hockings, Blyth, Hosea, Swain and Ha'angana have all been signed up to contracts with the other 3 oz Super Rugby clubs. 3 of those players were from NSW originally that other clubs went out and recruited from interstate. Granted they have signed McCauley who i think is a quality young player.

TOCC, You are hereby appointed as the Site grandmaster of understatement!

The fundamental problem is that Gibson does not understand the need for, and use of, power in the pack. People, not just me, who are Waratah supporters have been shouting this since early 2016 but no one has been listening. HQ did their big review of last season and promptly kept Gibson and got rid of some underlings. They then stood on the sidelines while the other franchises hoovered up the talent, all the while bleating that they had to keep salary cap discipline. Given that the Force players had to be paid out it was obvious to all that the salary cap would not be enforced this year and the folly of not competing for talent because "we couldn't afford to" has been exposed to all.

As a general observation, teams recruit locks with two skillset categories: a lineout master with good aerobic skills or a tight defensive lock with power running abilities. The Tahs have recruited only from one category. Maybe Palmer will prove himself to be in the second category but its a bit too early to rush to judgement on him. But Simmons, Hanigan, Staniforth, McCauley and Swinton all appear to fall into the first category.

The backrow is exactly the same problem. The closest thing we have to a power runner/defender is Holloway and he's not looking like he's got much punch despite having a long injury lay-off that could have been used to gain muscle mass and power. The rest are slightly heavier versions of Hooper, who I reckon would be the lightest openside in Super Rugby.

So, what should we have done on recruitment? We should have been working behind the scenes with the player agents while the Force/Rebels saga was playing out and then once the result was known we should have made a list of the talent that was available and what we would need to pay them to come on board. Then we would have had to find that money somewhere. Why we couldn't recruit one or two out of Coleman, Phillip, Naisarani and Haylett-Petty is just down to thinking we didn't need them.

Now the Rebels have got an ex-international lock who might be lucky to get a game this year, there is so much talent in front of him. And we've got Simmons, Staniforth and Palmer.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Staniforth is the recruitment that wasn't the best option. They could really only add one of Simmons and Staniforth and Simmons is clearly a much better player.

Dempsey would be our other power backrower. We just need him back from injury.

I think Swinton falls more into the category of the power lock/6. We just need him to develop.

McCauley is definitely in the set piece camp (although I think he is good).

 

[Scrubber2050]

Guys

Is Kepu back this week ?

 

[Hawko]

Guys

Is Kepu back this week ?

Tell you Sunday at 3 pm. Given that the scrum is probably the weakest part of the Rebel game, its probably not critical that he returns this week, but I'd sure like to see him back.

 

[fatprop]

I think Staniforth is the recruitment that wasn't the best option. They could really only add one of Simmons and Staniforth and Simmons is clearly a much better player.

Dempsey would be our other power backrower. We just need him back from injury.

I think Swinton falls more into the category of the power lock/6. We just need him to develop.

McCauley is definitely in the set piece camp (although I think he is good).

I wonder if when they signed Staniforth they were aware that Skelton was leaving

 

[Silverado]

Guys

Is Kepu back this week ?

According to this, yes
http://www.espn.com.au/rugby/story/...ahs-receive-ly-scrum-boost-return-sekope-kepu


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[Gnostic]

TOCC, You are hereby appointed as the Site grandmaster of understatement!



The fundamental problem is that Gibson does not understand the need for, and use of, power in the pack. People, not just me, who are Waratah supporters have been shouting this since early 2016 but no one has been listening. HQ did their big review of last season and promptly kept Gibson and got rid of some underlings. They then stood on the sidelines while the other franchises hoovered up the talent, all the while bleating that they had to keep salary cap discipline. Given that the Force players had to be paid out it was obvious to all that the salary cap would not be enforced this year and the folly of not competing for talent because "we couldn't afford to" has been exposed to all.

I was talking about the lack of coverage at lock in January 2015 when Douglas first left and Dennis was the replacement. I also mentioned that THP was going to be a weakness unless real coverage was found for Kepu and Ta'avao was recruited despite genuine Blues supporters with significant knowledge of the game saying how poor a THP he was.

To pin this on Gibson is harsh, this is a situation that has been in the making since Cheika was in charge. He inherited a pretty poor roster with a lot of players like the backrow made up of good individuals that do not make a balanced team. What does he do with most of his salary cap spent on some long term contracts already. He did well in recruiting Simmons, who would have been good paired with Skelton and a replacement.

Lets now add in the next factor which I see as pretty pervasive through Australian Rugby, the lack of ability in coaches and systems in Australia to achieving genuine improvement in the players. Lets have a look at just a couple of players in Sam Lousi and Michael AA. Both player have blossomed and improved out of sight since they went to NZ, Lousi in particular, then their is the old favourite of Nadolo. Name me a player in Australia that has improved their base core skills in the manner these players did when they left Australia. Even Skelton learnt more in half a season in the UK than he did here in two years. The example of Nadolo has always raised some interesting counter arguments saying that when he was here he was lazy and a poor trainer and he needed to get away from his comfort zone etc to improve. Well that raises a point anybody involved in adult education will tell you, that the target audience must be receptive to teaching and willing to make changes to improve - I have been coming to the conclusion of the last couple of years that the Australian system is broken not only because of poor strcutures from the ARU down, and poor coaching, but also because the players are not receptive, truly receptive to improving their weak points. Folau still cannot kick effectively for instance.

 

[Gnostic]

The sucession planning at lock has been poorly handled, In that time frame you have mentioned Australian U20's players; Rodda, Tui, Hockings, Blyth, Hosea, Swain and Ha'angana have all been signed up to contracts with the other 3 oz Super Rugby clubs. 3 of those players were from NSW originally that other clubs went out and recruited from interstate. Granted they have signed McCauley who i think is a quality young player.

Add in players like Lousi and Skelton being selected and essentially discarded or moved on and it really is a massive failure. Add in all the years that Peterson was in the EPS, did he ever start for the Tahs?

 

[Hawko]

To pin this on Gibson is harsh, this is a situation that has been in the making since Cheika was in charge. He inherited a pretty poor roster with a lot of players like the backrow made up of good individuals that do not make a balanced team. What does he do with most of his salary cap spent on some long term contracts already. He did well in recruiting Simmons, who would have been good paired with Skelton and a replacement.

Cheika has been gone from the Tahs for two and a half seasons. Even if he did not learn from his first year in charge, when he still had his training wheels on, Gibson should have learnt from last year's disaster. What did the season review say about the forwards performance? What did Gibson do to correct those problems? Just securing a better class of forwards coach was never the whole answer to 2017!

What Gibson and the committee charged with recruitment had to do was get a proper balance of power and workrate in the pack. Coleman and Naisirani were the two ideal choices to supply that strength. What Gibson and co. did was to sit on their hands and bleat about other teams breaking the salary cap. And so here we are today, with another season basically wasted.

For me a mid-table finish is just not acceptable for the Waratahs. Any year they don't make the second week of the finals is cause for a radical rethink. This is not where we need to be.

 

[Pfitzy]

Personally I like Paddy. He has played a lot of rugby and under different coaches. He is still there.

Which is more a statement on the appalling lack of focus on scrummaging in Australian rugby, than it is about Paddy's abilities.

Also: you now don't get to comment on scrums for the next forever minutes.

I'd like to say I'm sorry, but I'm not.

 

[jimmydubs]

Thought Wells was probably the best forward in a blue jumper.



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Aye. I bagged him last week so eating those words this week.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Which is more a statement on the appalling lack of focus on scrummaging in Australian rugby, than it is about Paddy's abilities.

Also: you now don't get to comment on scrums for the next forever minutes.

I'd like to say I'm sorry, but I'm not.

Agree with your first sentence but say he obviously is one of the best
YOUR mob has. He has been there for a long time.

Second sentence - just won't happen

Third sentence - I'm sure you are sorry about Paddy's scrum deficiencies

 

[fatprop]

Assuming the papers are accurate, Hanigan is out, Kepu is back

Let us see if we can get the balance right in the pigs

To me that means Latu and Kepu start, we need there go forward.

Also the dice roll with Tawake is over, he may have been there for some go forward, but we haven't seen any from him since the trial few minutes

We don't have any dynamic locks, so we need to tweak the backrow as well, I would punt on Meafua

 

[Scrubber2050]

Think Simmo and obviously Kepu will help shore up the scrum.

Keps will probably be underdone around the field (first game).

Rebels will be intense in the forwards s it should be interesting !

 

[Gnostic]

Cheika has been gone from the Tahs for two and a half seasons. Even if he did not learn from his first year in charge, when he still had his training wheels on, Gibson should have learnt from last year's disaster. What did the season review say about the forwards performance? What did Gibson do to correct those problems? Just securing a better class of forwards coach was never the whole answer to 2017!



What Gibson and the committee charged with recruitment had to do was get a proper balance of power and workrate in the pack. Coleman and Naisirani were the two ideal choices to supply that strength. What Gibson and co. did was to sit on their hands and bleat about other teams breaking the salary cap. And so here we are today, with another season basically wasted.



For me a mid-table finish is just not acceptable for the Waratahs. Any year they don't make the second week of the finals is cause for a radical rethink. This is not where we need to be.

I agree , but how many of the "workrate" forwards have been a continuation of the contracts from Chieka and how many options was Gibson given to terminate or let some go? What would the ARU have said/done if say Hanigan or well got dropped to Shute ala Quade Cooper to bring in some balance. The fact that posters here identified Lock as an issue at the end of 2014 when Douglas was going and it remains unaddressed excepting the good signing of Simmons (tempered by the loss of Skelton which exacerbates the "workrate" backrow) is a serious indictment on Chieka 2014-2015 and then Gibson 2016-2017.

​

Don't get me wrong, I do not excuse Gibson for the utter failure in recruitment, but I also temper my critique of him in this regard with a real contempt for the contracting system in Australia which seems to reward players on performances in GPS with continual promotion from schoolboys to EPS and the "investment" seems to be too great to drop them when they do not develop or perform. How else does a bloke like Petersen maintain an EPS spot for so long, or established Wallabies continue with the same fundamental flaws in their game year after F%$#$ing year.​

As for the lack of development of players, that is an absolute must address matter, and I have no doubt some egos need to be bruised and in some cases absolutely broken if they will not suck it up and address the substantial failings they have as players. For years we have tried and discarded players at the Tahs, a great many who have left and gone onto be extremely successful elsewhere, and as I said all the way back in 2009-2010 here it indicates a culture that is resistant to real coaching and learning.


So yes Gibson has failed on recruitment, and he will most likely get the arse this year, possibly before the end of the season if the performance of last weekend continues, but whoever replaces him will do no better unless the culture and structure is fixed.

 

[The Honey Badger]

I agree , but how many of the "workrate" forwards have been a continuation of the contracts from Chieka and how many options was Gibson given to terminate or let some go? What would the ARU have said/done if say Hanigan or well got dropped to Shute ala Quade Cooper to bring in some balance. The fact that posters here identified Lock as an issue at the end of 2014 when Douglas was going and it remains unaddressed excepting the good signing of Simmons (tempered by the loss of Skelton which exacerbates the "workrate" backrow) is a serious indictment on Chieka 2014-2015 and then Gibson 2016-2017.

​

Don't get me wrong, I do not excuse Gibson for the utter failure in recruitment, but I also temper my critique of him in this regard with a real contempt for the contracting system in Australia which seems to reward players on performances in GPS with continual promotion from schoolboys to EPS and the "investment" seems to be too great to drop them when they do not develop or perform. How else does a bloke like Petersen maintain an EPS spot for so long, or established Wallabies continue with the same fundamental flaws in their game year after F%$#$ing year.​

As for the lack of development of players, that is an absolute must address matter, and I have no doubt some egos need to be bruised and in some cases absolutely broken if they will not suck it up and address the substantial failings they have as players. For years we have tried and discarded players at the Tahs, a great many who have left and gone onto be extremely successful elsewhere, and as I said all the way back in 2009-2010 here it indicates a culture that is resistant to real coaching and learning.


So yes Gibson has failed on recruitment, and he will most likely get the arse this year, possibly before the end of the season if the performance of last weekend continues, but whoever replaces him will do no better unless the culture and structure is fixed.

DRTL

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[Derpus]

DRTL

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