Super Rugby Round 4, 2018 - Jaguares vs Waratahs @ Buenos Aires

[Brumby Runner]

But it isn't loaded with stars. Looking at the starting 15, you could count 4 - Hooper, Foley, Beale and Folau, and 2 of those aren't rated much by some posters. Others, whom I'm sure you will deem stars, are roundly shit-canned by most posters. You can troll all you like that it is loaded with stars, but there is, in fact, a lot of inexperience in that team, and it showed.
Stars or not, the lack of support to any ball runners or players who made the gain line was just rubbish, ball security poor, the defence flaky, and the handling absolutely woeful. Flat line attack running at 45 degrees with no "straighteners" with a fast rushing defence was a recipe for disaster. That first half was abominable. The second half was a little better, but still pretty awful. Stars or not, it wasn't near good enough.
The issues of the lightweight pack are only going to get greater.
They need Kepu, Latu, Simmons (set piece value) at the very least but it will only paper the cracks.
BUT, at least they never quit, the lineout was passable, and Wells made a couple of good hits. Slim pickings.

Really looking to me that both the Brumbies and Tahs have real coaching issues. Neither team appears to have a discenable game plan, especially when in possession, and they are relying on individuals to make the initial line breaks. Contrast with Wessells at the Rebels, where the team appears to be more cohesive and have a better understanding of what they must do with the ball in order to put the opposition under pressure. Even Thorn at the Reds can be seen to have a direct influence on how they are playing. Keep it tight, make fewer mistakes and strangle the opposition into errors. Not pretty, but more effective than anything on show in Sydney and Canberra at the moment.

 

[fatprop]

Really looking to me that both the Brumbies and Tahs have real coaching issues. Neither team appears to have a discenable game plan, especially when in possession, and they are relying on individuals to make the initial line breaks. Contrast with Wessells at the Rebels, where the team appears to be more cohesive and have a better understanding of what they must do with the ball in order to put the opposition under pressure. Even Thorn at the Reds can be seen to have a direct influence on how they are playing. Keep it tight, make fewer mistakes and strangle the opposition into errors. Not pretty, but more effective than anything on show in Sydney and Canberra at the moment.

I think the Tahs have a plan, they are just not executing it consistently

They appear to want to use ball movement to break down defenses

The Rona try on the weekend and the Beale no try of previous weeks are examples of when it works'ish. Also the attempted ball movement near contact and the second line attacking structure I see as example of this.

It sort of makes when you don't for whatever reason have 300 big boppers available to go the direct route

 

[Derpus]

Seems like low percentage play.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Beale and Folau need to do their special stuff for the Tahs backline to work well.

Beale carrying the ball in 2 hands, darting this way and that is hard to defend against whilst
Folau is a more conservative type of player who uses size, speed and elusiveness to break lines.

However if they are both not on their game Tahs backline will struggle, particularly with
the forwards not dominating

 

[TheNude]

Latu helped some elements when he came on the field but gee the lineout fell apart, particularly in a couple of key attacking situations.

Fitzy has been fairly anonymous around the field but the lineout has been excellent with him starting.

That said, we need Latu back to help in two of the weakest areas; scrummaging and tight five physicality.

Completely agree, Latu is certainly not the messiah but I think he's got more upside than the others and can keep the aggression under-control. Shame we let Taf go overseas as his leadership and lack of self preservation would have been handy.

 

[Braveheart81]

The Tahs backline made easy metres down the flanks and have been pretty good creating space so there is lots of space down the tram tracks.

The issue has been after we make that break and are in the red zone of having some patience and converting more opportunities into points.

They have to get more clinical at scoring once we are five metres out. I think they are better off not trying to do it through endless pick and goes or a forward crashing onto a short ball and rather giving the outside backs some one on one opportunities out wider.

 

[KOB1987]

Agreed completely BH. Wallabies suffer from the same problem, we hold the ball for tens of phases and can't finish it off, inevitably resulting in a turnover and a try at the other end.

 

[Braveheart81]

Agreed completely BH. Wallabies suffer from the same problem, we hold the ball for tens of phases and can't finish it off, inevitably resulting in a turnover and a try at the other end.

Generally I thought the Tahs had good patience trying to make a break in the backs. Beale particularly directed play back and forth until they did have lots of space to make inroads.

The short passing game in the forwards isn't good enough to warrant the risk of dropping the ball. It's too telegraphed too close to the line and doesn't really give them the opportunity to make a break but does come at a high risk of dropped ball.

I don't see why the same attacking philosophy that led to the initial break or territory gain can't be employed closer to the line. They don't need a whole lot of space for Izzy etc. to be able to score from 10 metres out. Just a bit of a mismatch or unevenly spaced defenders.

 

[The Honey Badger]

That game had some turning points.

The intercept before halftime, sealed it for the Jags.

Foley should have seen the player race up out of the line. Apart from that mistake, I thought Foley was OK. Some nice kicks and did run at the line and made some breaks.

The other turning point was Gordons quick tap. Great play when it works, but it ended up in a turnover as the Tahs were not ready for that play either.

There is a 14 point turn around in those 2 plays, both brain snaps.

We could have been looking at another last gasp win.

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[Derpus]

That game had some turning points.

The intercept before halftime, sealed it for the Jags.

Foley should have seen the player race up out of the line. Apart from that mistake, I thought Foley was OK. Some nice kicks and did run at the line and made some breaks.

The other turning point was Gordons quick tap. Great play when it works, but it ended up in a turnover as the Tahs were not ready for that play either.

There is a 14 point turn around in those 2 plays, both brain snaps.

We could have been looking at another last gasp win.

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I don't think we were ever winning that game. The score flatters us, as it did multiple times last year. Teams fall away because they have us beaten by 60 minutes (less last night). We score a few loose tries at the tail end and the score doesn't accurately reflect how terrible we were.

The fact that the Sharks let us draw with them last week is pretty dire, all things considered. They'll be way down their conference.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think we were ever winning that game. The score flatters us, as it did multiple times last year. Teams fall away because they have us beaten by 60 minutes (less last night). We score a few loose tries at the tail end and the score doesn't accurately reflect how terrible we were.

The fact that the Sharks let us draw with them last week is pretty dire, all things considered. They'll be way down their conference.

The game was certainly lost by half time with that intercept try just when we were looking a little better.

If we'd gone to the break 26-12 or 26-14 I definitely think we'd have been well in it.

Even from 26-0, the Tahs butchered multiple opportunities close to the line and could have definitely put themselves well and truly into the game.

I agree the final score was hugely flattering to the Tahs thanks to those two late tries.

 

[Derpus]

It's not a new thing though. The Hurricanes game last year springs to mind. We come 'roaring back' with a late resurgence, after falling way behind and the Hurricanes going to sleep.

Maybe thats the game plan. Lull them into a false sense of security, them BAM, close loss.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Best team won on the day. Think we all agree.

2 late trys and yes scoreline was more respectable for the Tahs.

But they had some lucky breaks too, which flattered their scoreline.

I actually don't buy the argument they had the game won and took their foot off. Think that is not giving the credit to the subs that came on and the overall better performance in the second half.

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[cyclopath]

Really looking to me that both the Brumbies and Tahs have real coaching issues. Neither team appears to have a discenable game plan, especially when in possession, and they are relying on individuals to make the initial line breaks. Contrast with Wessells at the Rebels, where the team appears to be more cohesive and have a better understanding of what they must do with the ball in order to put the opposition under pressure. Even Thorn at the Reds can be seen to have a direct influence on how they are playing. Keep it tight, make fewer mistakes and strangle the opposition into errors. Not pretty, but more effective than anything on show in Sydney and Canberra at the moment.

Exactly what occurred to me - the Tahs chuck it around hoping for a one off break or miracle, but with little thought to structure. Pick and drive would have worked with the Jaguares keeping most players in the defensive line most of the time, for example. They, and the Brumbies, often shuffle it to a player in no better or worse position. Support runners aren't putting themselves in positions to be of much use either.

 

[barbarian]

I think the lack of go-forward momentum exacerbates most of their issues.

On Sunday, the following situation happened at least 5 times.

- Tahs make a break in the backs, or find space on the outside of the Jaguares defence.
- Foley spreads to try and take advantage, and we make even more ground - we're rolling!
- Jaguars slow up our ruck ball
- Gordon passes to a forward runner (Staniforth, Hanigan or Wells usually) and they get trapped 2m behind the advantage line
- We repeat the same with slow ball, and get trapped another 3m behind the line
- We face a set defensive line with no momentum, and make a mistake/kick it away.

Ultimately when the play slows down we have nothing. We can't create our own momentum, so we're entirely reliant on creativity in the backs, and that's such a risky game to play.
.

 

[barbarian]

And while I'm on a rant - how do we still not know how to deal with a rush defence?

Right through Aussie rugby, from soup to nuts, we've got no idea. And it happened again in Argentina.

Even I know that there are two things you do when faced with a rushing umbrella defence.

1. You attack around the fringes of the ruck to ensure the opposition commits (usually through pick-and-go or halfback snipes), and
2. You grubber behind the line on a few occasions to slow the rushing backline

The Tahs did neither for the first half an hour of that game. What happened the first time they used a pick-and-go? Holloway scored untouched. Did they use it again? OF COURSE NOT.
.

 

[The torpedo]

2. You grubber behind the line on a few occasions to slow the rushing backline

Overcorrection from the Robbie Deans days would be why this never gets used

 

[Gnostic]

The lack of recruitment argument is no excuse for the coaches/management as many of us identified the second row as an area of significant weakness in 2014 when Douglas was going overseas and Dennis was moved into the 2nd row with Mumm.

The problem then as now with the backrow is a lack of balance. I was very happy to see Simmons recruited as his set piece is one of the most solid in Australia, but having him there necessitated retaining Skelton and another field impact lock as Simmons has zero effective work away from the scrum & lineout.

In the backrow we have three workrate forwards who have no real impact at the ruck, such that unless the ball is cleared immediately it is very likely to be a turnover. Crevy managed to stay on the ball despite the best efforts of two of the backrowers and Staniforth, yes Crevy is one of the best hookers over the past decade, one of the top 3 IMO, but 3 on one is a sad indictment on the technique and physicality of the Tahs players.

These are facts that have been pretty evident since 2015. 3 years on the 2nd row has not been addressed, the back row degraded from impact and effective workrate players like Jackpot and Palu and importantly the combination with the others like Hooper, Dennis, Mumm. Now we have starting three very similar players and ineffective 2nd rowers and until the Jaguares game two hookers in the same mould. Is it any wonder that the Tahs forwards struggle to make the gain line let alone get over it, and then struggle to maintain possession.

Despite appearances this is not bagging those players, they have been done a dis-service to a large degree by having their strengths negated and their deficiencies exacerbated by the lack of balance in the combinations. The trouble is with the massively flawed recruitment of the Tahs over 3 or more years there is no solution unless they bring in people from outside the squad, which just will not happen.

 

[Derpus]

Despite appearances this is not bagging those players, they have been done a dis-service to a large degree by having their strengths negated and their deficiencies exacerbated by the lack of balance in the combinations. The trouble is with the massively flawed recruitment of the Tahs over 3 or more years there is no solution unless they bring in people from outside the squad, which just will not happen.

I agree with this. Most of the players we have would be good next to a player that complemented their deficiencies. Hanigan would be a handy 6 with a big Lock and 8 in the pack, for example.

 

[The Honey Badger]

I agree with this. Most of the players we have would be good next to a player that complemented their deficiencies. Hanigan would be a handy 6 with a big Lock and 8 in the pack, for example.

Thought Wells was probably the best forward in a blue jumper.



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