Subbies 2023!

[Denistone_Dennis]

I’m interested on where you see the future of Div 3 next year?
Do you think it will rely on clubs coming down from Div 2 to fill the gap or is it clubs coming up from Div 4?
If Beecroft don’t go up there’s realistically only 5 teams that will be in the division so either it will rely on some clubs coming down from Div 2 or finding 2 clubs wanting to push up.
Personally I don’t think there is the number of clubs to be able to get the 7 teams in Div 2 and 3 we had this year. I hope for the sake of Div 3 they don’t just forget about it.
My guess would be this is what we are looking at
Div 1- Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats & Mosman
Div 2- Petersham, Lindfield, UNSW, Newport, Hills, Epping, Valley & Briars
Div 3- Beecroft, Knox, Harbour, Harlequins & Barker (maybe Iggies)

You can't have a club (Lindfield) win 90% of their games and keep them in the same division....

 

[HogansHeros]

I’m interested on where you see the future of Div 3 next year?
Do you think it will rely on clubs coming down from Div 2 to fill the gap or is it clubs coming up from Div 4?
If Beecroft don’t go up there’s realistically only 5 teams that will be in the division so either it will rely on some clubs coming down from Div 2 or finding 2 clubs wanting to push up.
Personally I don’t think there is the number of clubs to be able to get the 7 teams in Div 2 and 3 we had this year. I hope for the sake of Div 3 they don’t just forget about it.
My guess would be this is what we are looking at
Div 1- Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats & Mosman
Div 2- Petersham, Lindfield, UNSW, Newport, Hills, Epping, Valley & Briars
Div 3- Beecroft, Knox, Harbour, Harlequins & Barker (maybe Iggies)

Based on this year, you almost do get rid of div 3.
Harbour isnt a club, just a team... maybe they go play as a team in a div 1 club to get some competitive rugby instead of leaning on SS clubs for other teams.
Who knows what Knox will look like next season.
Iggies could barely put a team together by the end of the season.
And you would assume Beecroft will want to go up.
Leaves you with only Harlequinns and Barker as the only 2 true Div 3 clubs left.

 

[Pfitzy]

you would assume Beecroft will want to go up.

There isn't room unless someone from div 2 wants to come down.

 

[HogansHeros]

There isn't room unless someone from div 2 wants to come down.

Ah well probs best thing for beecroft to have another very successful year in "div 3" whatever that looks like

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Based on this year, you almost do get rid of div 3.
Harbour isnt a club, just a team... maybe they go play as a team in a div 1 club to get some competitive rugby instead of leaning on SS clubs for other teams.
Who knows what Knox will look like next season.
Iggies could barely put a team together by the end of the season.
And you would assume Beecroft will want to go up.
Leaves you with only Harlequinns and Barker as the only 2 true Div 3 clubs left.

Sounds like Subbies rotting from the bottom up.

Are we 3-4 seasons from the same being said about div 2 and a decade away from it all being done?

 

[The Wombat]

I’m interested on where you see the future of Div 3 next year?
Do you think it will rely on clubs coming down from Div 2 to fill the gap or is it clubs coming up from Div 4?
If Beecroft don’t go up there’s realistically only 5 teams that will be in the division so either it will rely on some clubs coming down from Div 2 or finding 2 clubs wanting to push up.
Personally I don’t think there is the number of clubs to be able to get the 7 teams in Div 2 and 3 we had this year. I hope for the sake of Div 3 they don’t just forget about it.
My guess would be this is what we are looking at
Div 1- Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats & Mosman
Div 2- Petersham, Lindfield, UNSW, Newport, Hills, Epping, Valley & Briars
Div 3- Beecroft, Knox, Harbour, Harlequins & Barker (maybe Iggies)

What about merging the top 3 divs into two:

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham, UNSW, Hills,

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, (maybe Harbour, maybe Iggies or anyone else that wants to step up.)

Those look like reasonably stable divisions.

 

[oldmate11]

What about merging the top 3 divs into two:

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham, UNSW, Hills,

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, (maybe Harbour, maybe Iggies or anyone else that wants to step up.)

Those look like reasonably stable divisions.

Hills would get smoked lol

Harbour would have to come up to div 2 in this case, they'd smash everyone below them.

 

[HogansHeros]

Harbour would have to come up to div 2 in this case, they'd smash everyone below them.

and run easts 6th and 7th grade as 2nd and 3rd grade? And maybe easts or gordon 4ths colts as theirs? (If SS dont run an extra colts comp next year?)
Its just messy

 

[HogansHeros]

What about merging the top 3 divs into two:

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham, UNSW, Hills,

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, (maybe Harbour, maybe Iggies or anyone else that wants to step up.)

Those look like reasonably stable divisions.

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, UNSW, Hills

2 10 club divs.

 

[Pfitzy]

Sounds like Subbies rotting from the bottom up.

Are we 3-4 seasons from the same being said about div 2 and a decade away from it all being done?

Looking at the data shows a decline we already generally understand:

 

[Pfitzy]

However there is another metric that I think gives it another facet to udnerstand where we are - number of teams per club.

You can register as many players as you like. But you're only going to stick your hand up for the number of teams for which you have coaches, managers, volunteers, facilities, and enough reliable bodies to play each week. And also what you can afford!

In 6 divisions of 8-10 clubs, you want to see an average of 3.5 teams per club, with 6 teams at the top end down to 1 at the bottom. Historically that figure has often been higher as Radford Cup and Halligan Cup push it upward.

Now that we're at 5 divisions with reduced grades, it is closer to 3.

 

[Pfitzy]

Meanwhile, Premier Rugby is seeing some clubs flourish, with 4-5 Grades + 4-5 Colts teams (e.g. Easts), and others not meeting their requirements e.g. Two Blues with no Fourth Grade or Third Colts.

Can Subbies fix this by itself? No.

We need a whole-of-system approach, and I'd hope this move for pro rugby to rationalise operations with RA has a flow-on effect for us.

It would also be nice if SRU decided what it wanted to be, and structured itself accordingly. I still believe every Subbies club should have a relationship with a Premier Club in order to have better dialogue and movement or development of players, coaches, and admin staff between the two.

 

[Eastcoast]

There isn't room unless someone from div 2 wants to come down.

I would like to think Subbies wouldnt stop a team that can improve the standard of the higher divisions just due to numbers in that Division. Div 2 had 7 teams this year? Surely 8 or 10 wouldnt be a problem if players are getting consistent games week in week out.

Div 1 - Mountains, Colleague’s, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne, Waverley, Forrest, St Pats, Mosman, Lindfield, Petersham

Div 2 - Beecroft, Harlequins, Barker, Knox, Valley, Briars, Epping, Newport, UNSW, Hills

2 10 club divs.

This makes the most sense to me.

 

[TheBigArvo]

Meanwhile, Premier Rugby is seeing some clubs flourish, with 4-5 Grades + 4-5 Colts teams (e.g. Easts), and others not meeting their requirements e.g. Two Blues with no Fourth Grade or Third Colts.

Can Subbies fix this by itself? No.

We need a whole-of-system approach, and I'd hope this move for pro rugby to rationalise operations with Rugby Australia has a flow-on effect for us.

It would also be nice if SRU decided what it wanted to be, and structured itself accordingly. I still believe every Subbies club should have a relationship with a Premier Club in order to have better dialogue and movement or development of players, coaches, and admin staff between the two.

I’m intrigued to know why Subbies clubs are seeing a drop off in numbers as players don’t want to commit post covid. Yet numbers are Shute Shield clubs seem to be increasing?

Wonder if it comes down to structure? Money? Would of thought guys would of preferred the laid back nature of Subbies as it’s less commitment with training and games.

Your right as long as SRU allows clubs to warehouse colts and players in extra sides without a proper competition your going to see the drop off in clubs around them. Rather than these Shute clubs running an extra side it would be good to improve the relationship these clubs have with there local Sides.

 

[Pfitzy]

Surely 8 or 10 wouldnt be a problem

10 is definitely a problem.

You're never going to get a decent club championship unless it is a full home and away season.

That means 8 clubs max, 14 rounds, max.

Nobody wants 18 rounds. Nobody.

There are 9 clubs in Div 1
There are 7 in Div 2

Mapping 16 there is easy. Two divisions of 8, with just the details to be worked out.

There doesn't look to be a pressing candidate for promotion from Div 3. The strongest club - Beecroft - didn't play any Halligan Cup games. Do they have a third grade? Would they want to start one?

 

[Pfitzy]

I’m intrigued to know why Subbies clubs are seeing a drop off in numbers as players don’t want to commit post covid. Yet numbers are Shute Shield clubs seem to be increasing?

Wonder if it comes down to structure? Money? Would of thought guys would of preferred the laid back nature of Subbies as it’s less commitment with training and games.

If you're signed onto Grade 5 or Colts 4 as a bench player, you get the same thing.

 

[TheBigArvo]

10 is definitely a problem.

You're never going to get a decent club championship unless it is a full home and away season.

That means 8 clubs max, 14 rounds, max.

Nobody wants 18 rounds. Nobody.

There are 9 clubs in Div 1
There are 7 in Div 2

Mapping 16 there is easy. Two divisions of 8, with just the details to be worked out.

There doesn't look to be a pressing candidate for promotion from Div 3. The strongest club - Beecroft - didn't play any Halligan Cup games. Do they have a third grade? Would they want to start one?

No one’s asking for 18 rounds again and Yes the 16 teams in Div 1/2 on the surface fit into a nice 8 team comps.
However the question is what do you do with the 5 teams (maybe 6) remaining in Div 3 if you go down that route.
No team in Div 4 has looked like being able to take the next step up. Plus do clubs in Div 2 want to hang around if a Lindfield (assuming they remain) are going to run over the top of everyone again.

 

[The Wombat]

It’s not the end of the world if you don’t play every team twice.

 

[TheBigArvo]

It’s not the end of the world if you don’t play every team twice.

Unless your drawn against the Div 2 Lindfield this year…

 

[The Wombat]

Unless your drawn against the Div 2 Lindfield this year…

My suggestion had them in Div 1