Subbies 2023!

[The Ghost of Raelene]

They really need to insitute some sort of ruling that stops hoarding of players. But then again a lot of the time its the club thats attracting players to the game not the game itself. Its a hard fix.

Yeah, it's hard to hate because its still people involved in Rugby which is what we want... As much as the mind boggles at the amount these guys and girls pay for essentially a season ticket to watch 1st Grade.

There is fun in being part of a big rolling club and spending a Saturday with 50-75 mates. Look at how some Subbies Clubs can go on a run or maintain the rage i.e. Mosman, Colleagues and it seems Lindfield. When a club starts to fall away it's really hard to arrest it and it seems the drop down, win and build back method might be the only way.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

I guess it all really comes down to the decentralised system of rugby admin in sydney and nsw. We really need alignment amongst all the different organisations that run rugby in sydney before we see really big growth within the grassroots.

 

[sterlingmortlocksgloves]

By all accounts, it seems like it was a tough day at the office for the overaged undergrads.

 

[Let it sing]

I guess it all really comes down to the decentralised system of rugby admin in sydney and nsw. We really need alignment amongst all the different organisations that run rugby in sydney before we see really big growth within the grassroots.

Shute Shield and Subbies need to be working in partnership and not separately. When development officers or recruitment posts are going out they need to be pointing out all available clubs (SS and Subbies) in the area for young players. Imagine what that could do to the Western Sydney clubs.

Shute Shield is not the only option and plenty of handy 2nd XV players and below or boys that just want to play for the enjoyment either don’t play or stop after they get too old for SS Colts

 

[Pfitzy]

Shute Shield and Subbies need to be working in partnership and not separately.

Agreed. In fact Subbies would like nothing more than a good working relationship with SRU, as demonstrated in the partnerships that have been allowed for SRU clubs to fill Colts positions. The aim is to show Subbies to "the other lot" as a viable place to play.

Is it really working? I would say it isn't, as very few of the Easts Colts 4 that play for Harlequins stick around to go into Subbies. I know a handful of lower grade senior players at Shute clubs have gone to Subbies as it is less training, less money, and more fun. But not everyone wants that.

I've spoken to several Subbies clubs about the challenges, and one thing that keeps cropping up is the attitude from their local Premier Club; sneeringly calling Subbies "mickey mouse rugby" so that they can keep hoarding players and taking their money.

How many of those Colts 4 players at any Premier Club will go on to play First XV? I'd suggest not many.
How many of them are happy sitting on a 4th Grade bench for a few minutes a week? I'd suggest not many, and don't know what keeps them there...

 

[Pfitzy]

When development officers or recruitment posts are going out they need to be pointing out all available clubs (SS and Subbies) in the area for young players.

I agree, but believe DOs to be in a difficult position on this front.

Their job is to keep rugby going and part of that is selling the dream of playing at a high level; giving kids aspiration to "make it" despite most of them not having the talent or drive to get to a paid rugby career in this country.

They're not doing that if they spruik the local social rugby club IMHO. And you're not turning up to a session, telling some of the talented kids about local Premier Rugby and the rest about Subbies and beer

 

[Pfitzy]

Ultimately it comes down to how Premier Rugby want to play it.

They have it in their power to get their surplus U20s into a room and tell them there simply isn't a place for them at the club, here is a part refund (keep the shorts and socks!) and a list of the local Subbies clubs. Go there, have some fun, maybe come back in a year or two and play Grade when you've been around the traps. Would be particularly valuable for tight five players I think.

That won't happen because, while the best of the Colts are future Grade prospects, all of them are walking dollar signs to a Premier Club.

It also could be counterproductive because the guys who don't make the cut probably leave the game entirely.

I'd be open to a partnership with e.g. Eastwood where their surplus Colts can play as my Radford side, then filter back to the Woods Colts 3 when injuries start to hit. There is a dual registration scheme for just such a purpose.

It is then up to me to give them enough incentive to stay on.

 

[HogansHeros]

Ultimately it comes down to how Premier Rugby want to play it.

They have it in their power to get their surplus U20s into a room and tell them there simply isn't a place for them at the club, here is a part refund (keep the shorts and socks!) and a list of the local Subbies clubs. Go there, have some fun, maybe come back in a year or two and play Grade when you've been around the traps. Would be particularly valuable for tight five players I think.

That won't happen because, while the best of the Colts are future Grade prospects, all of them are walking dollar signs to a Premier Club.

It also could be counterproductive because the guys who don't make the cut probably leave the game entirely.

I'd be open to a partnership with e.g. Eastwood where their surplus Colts can play as my Radford side, then filter back to the Woods Colts 3 when injuries start to hit. There is a dual registration scheme for just such a purpose.

It is then up to me to give them enough incentive to stay on.

Yeah pretty sad if a bunch of young fellas are keen but sitting on the bench, when they could be playing a full 70 minutes each week in subbies and getting game experience... cant see how many would stand a chance at progressing if they arent getting much of a run.

 

[Heavyd]

Covid changed a lot of attitudes around sport, businesses and people views and values around partcipation.

I think the well organised and resource rich Shute Shield clubs appeal to some players as can provide the resources that subbies cannot compete with, 'professional' training, medical and kit they receive. When they arrive at training there are 5/6 trainers, witches hats and drills set up everywhere. It is just a well organised and structured machine which comes from having plenty of bodies and money. Injuries either at training or particulary game day, are well resourced by a conga line of pyschos and ad hoc medical staff. The kit and merch, they get the flash bag, hoodies etc that makes them (and their parents, where a large source of encouragement to play "grade' and not grubby subbies comes from) feel they belong to a much larger community.

No easy answers for most underresourced subbies clubs, who despite the best endeavours struggle for volunteers and coaches, have a stretched medic on game day and can provide a training top at best along with socks and shorts on the merch front. And no I dont want to to hear about Mosman or Colleagues or Lindfield. Im talking about the reality of most clubs, not the fortune few.

The pull of grade obviously has enough appeal for a half decent player to prefer a 9.00am 4th grade kick off in front of no one in Shute Shield rather than play 1st grade to 500-1000 at 3.15pm in subbies.

 

[Pfitzy]

The kit and merch, they get the flash bag, hoodies etc

TBH I could justify charging $500 I'd be throwing all the kit in for free.

Our hoodie is at least as good as anything out there, I might add

 

[Let it sing]

Covid changed a lot of attitudes around sport, businesses and people views and values around partcipation.

I think the well organised and resource rich Shute Shield clubs appeal to some players as can provide the resources that subbies cannot compete with, 'professional' training, medical and kit they receive. When they arrive at training there are 5/6 trainers, witches hats and drills set up everywhere. It is just a well organised and structured machine which comes from having plenty of bodies and money. Injuries either at training or particulary game day, are well resourced by a conga line of pyschos and ad hoc medical staff. The kit and merch, they get the flash bag, hoodies etc that makes them (and their parents, where a large source of encouragement to play "grade' and not grubby subbies comes from) feel they belong to a much larger community.

No easy answers for most underresourced subbies clubs, who despite the best endeavours struggle for volunteers and coaches, have a stretched medic on game day and can provide a training top at best along with socks and shorts on the merch front. And no I dont want to to hear about Mosman or Colleagues or Lindfield. Im talking about the reality of most clubs, not the fortune few.

The pull of grade obviously has enough appeal for a half decent player to prefer a 9.00am 4th grade kick off in front of no one in Shute Shield rather than play 1st grade to 500-1000 at 3.15pm in subbies.

I’m not sure how Lindfield are considered amongst the fortune few.

Have heard from a friends son that plays there that they work their backsides off to create a place to go on a Saturday and have the same struggles for coaches and volunteers as most clubs do.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

I’m not sure how Lindfield are considered amongst the fortune few.

Have heard from a friends son that plays there that they work their backsides off to create a place to go on a Saturday and have the same struggles for coaches and volunteers as most clubs do.

I think the term fortune should really just apply to the Clubs location. It definitely helps to be in an area that has traditionally strong Rugby ties or Isolation from competition. Most of the clubs with strong numbers are Lindfield, Mosman, Colleagues, Hunters Hill... That's where the term fortune is applicable. It shouldn't relate to the effort the Club puts in from Admin to Coaching.

 

[Oldsoldier]

Unsure how we’d be considered fortunate based on location being in pissing distance of 4 Shute shield clubs.

Speaking as a former committee member and club captain I can attest to the monumental effort that has gone into to creating a culture and community at Lindfield which generates large playing group numbers, evident in setting up a womens competition from scratch on behalf of subbies.

Understood that any input is unwanted however because we have had success in doing so.

 

[Pfitzy]

Unsure how we’d be considered fortunate based on location being in pissing distance of 4 Shute shield clubs.

You're not alone in that, which speaks to the effort of your committee to have a thriving club in a higher division. With more teams comes a proportionally higher level of effort to keep the lights on and push ahead, after all.

The point GoR was making: you're in a a rugby area. The eastern fringe of Sydney is more heavily populated with rugby people. so the number and size of the clubs should be proportionally higher. And it is, when you look at the map of Subbies and Premier Clubs.

My club doesn't have the same challenge of Premier Rugby or large Subbies Rugby in the area.

Instead, I've got a dozen rugby league clubs who will pay guys $200 a game or more just to walk onto the field.

I'd say the effort and size of our Committee / Volunteer base to keep 2 teams on the field is proportionally equal to Lindfield's 5+ teams.

(Anecdote: I was out for a walk the other day in my Renegades training shirt, and a young couple were coming the other way. Struck up a conversation as he had a Bunnies training top on, and said he'd heard of us. After urging him to come to training, he asked what the game wage was "Free beer and pizza - we're amateurs", was my reply).

 

[Pfitzy]

evident in setting up a womens competition from scratch on behalf of subbies.

Even more impressive, given Lindfield weren't present when I first called existing Subbies Clubs with Womens Rugby together in November of 2021, to discuss running our own competition.

Having the right people in the room, with a critical mass behind them, is definitely a bonus. I hope more clubs get on board as the season progresses.

 

[DaSchmooze]

(Anecdote: I was out for a walk the other day in my Renegades training shirt, and a young couple were coming the other way. Struck up a conversation as he had a Bunnies training top on, and said he'd heard of us. After urging him to come to training, he asked what the game wage was "Free beer and pizza - we're amateurs", was my reply).

Its always baffled me that leaguies playing local community game get paid. I have no idea where the revenue comes from and why the players would anitcipate remuneration to play a game they enjoy.

 

[HogansHeros]

Its always baffled me that leaguies playing local community game get paid. I have no idea where the revenue comes from and why the players would anitcipate remuneration to play a game they enjoy.

Pokies

 

[Pfitzy]

Pokies

And big sponsorships at the smaller clubs who don't have a big club base.

Let's also remember Subbies was NOT amateur once upon a time (in living memory), and more than a few players did alright out of it.

It creates an arms race that isn't sustainable in either code when the sponsor decides to walk.

 

[Pfitzy]

why the players would anitcipate remuneration to play a game they enjoy.

Same reason rugby league split in the first place: socio-economics.

When you're a white-collar desk jockey like me, you can still get to work on crutches or in a sling.
When you're a forklift driver or bricklayer, you can't.

Therefore it comes down to rewarding them for the risk they're taking on. And if you're half-decent at either game and have to choose between supplementing your income at the risk of not working, it is better than NOT supplementing your income at all for the same deal.

"Love of the game" doesn't pay your rent in Sydney.

 

[HogansHeros]

The only blokes i know playing league as an adult, were all involved in some sort of development pathway at some point, either playing Harrold Matt, SG Ball or Ron Massey Cup, Not quite making it into the NRL and so going to club land and earning a pretty $500 a game. Not sure if my experience is Unique.
Where as playing Union, most of the blokes playing subbies were never really involved in a development pathway, i guess never having that same exposure to professional sport.