Springboks v Wallabies - Sunday 2 October 1am AEST - Loftus Versfeld

[Beefcake]

I personally reckon Folau is not quite as good as some think, he not quite good enough to be the only real attacking weapon in a backline!

Many credible sources within the game attest to Folau's immense talent and we as pundits have seen his skillset unique consistently against good opposition. Thats not the real issue.

But like QC (Quade Cooper), KB (Kurtley Beale), Pocock and all the other immensely talented individuals we've seen in this current generation, he is curbed by a blunt structure, a playing group lacking coherence and rudderless leadership.

Of the three, leadership (best player, attitude and behaviour of team first and loved and feared on and off field) can greatly influence the other two but not the reverse. No criticism of Moore, as he was never leadership material.

The wobs didnt play poorly, but really lacked someone to drive belief and apply this translation within the team.

There is a good balance of talent in team, maybe better ball runners in the forwards, the backline talent pool is potentially best Ive seen - maybe more role clarity with QC (Quade Cooper) & Foley, maybe bring in Speight or Kudriani for Hodge.

I reckon the team needs a good leader, to drive the exceptional talent such as Folau, QC (Quade Cooper), Hooper, Coleman within the team but always thinking of how the team can improve on the run, while also being the best on the field etc.

 

[Froggy]

Well, we're 2 from 8 tests this year (admitedly 7 of the 8 against world top 4 sides), but the interesting thing is that in 3 of the 6 losses we've scored more tries than our opponents. This says to me two things, we can't kick goals, and we give too many penalties away in the red zone.

Sure, there are lots of things to improve on (most notably the line-out) but if we had won those three games most people would be calling it a fair year.

For those calling for Foley's head, who kicks goals if he goes? Not Cooper, surely? The trouble is, we don't have a heap of top level goalkickers in Aus. The only ones I would rate better then Foley are CLL (ill), Harris (injured) and Debreczeni (barely plays at Super standard).

What do others think of a backline of 9. Genia, 10. Cooper, 11. DHP, 12. Kerevi, 13. Folaua, 14. Naivalu, 15. Foley

 

[Highlander35]

Harris is at Lyon and playing well.

 

[RebelYell]

Well, we're 2 from 8 tests this year (admitedly 7 of the 8 against world top 4 sides), but the interesting thing is that in 3 of the 6 losses we've scored more tries than our opponents. This says to me two things, we can't kick goals, and we give too many penalties away in the red zone.

Sure, there are lots of things to improve on (most notably the line-out) but if we had won those three games most people would be calling it a fair year.

For those calling for Foley's head, who kicks goals if he goes? Not Cooper, surely? The trouble is, we don't have a heap of top level goalkickers in Aus. The only ones I would rate better then Foley are CLL (ill), Harris (injured) and Debreczeni (barely plays at Super standard).

What do others think of a backline of 9. Genia, 10. Cooper, 11. DHP, 12. Kerevi, 13. Folaua, 14. Naivalu, 15. Foley

I would prefer:

Genia, Cooper, Hodge, Kerevi, Folau, Naivalu, Dane HP

 

[wamberal]

Get the pigs right and we have a chance. They were okay in patches, but we still cannot win our own lineouts consistently, and we put absolutely no real pressure on the opposition.

 

[Viking]

Izzy and Quade do not gel. Foley understands how Izzy plays as does KB (Kurtley Beale). Cooper is not able to bring him into the game at the right time and/or Izzy cannot see the opportunities right now with QC (Quade Cooper).

Except with Cooper did a cross field kick and brought Izzy into the game against the best team in the world.

Or when Izzy ran an inside line to Cooper and made the only break in Bled 2.

Foley has played every game this year and hasn't brought Izzy into the game anymore then Cooper.

Izzy is just have a rough patch. The Cooper/Izzy combo is a work in progress - but I still think it's better then Foley/Izzy.

 

[Viking]

I'd like to see Arnold and Douglas in the 2nd row, Fardy at 6 with someone like Dempsey off the bench to cover 6/8.

Arnold and Douglas over Coleman?

 

[Micheal]

Arnold and Douglas over Coleman?

Ahh fuck I meant Coleman. For some reason I constantly type Arnold when I mean Coleman but this time it escaped the editing process.

 

[TOCC]

Wallabies percentage of own ball won at the lineout would be sitting close to 65% now for the Rugby Championship, absolutely pathetic and a key reason the Wallabies can't apply sufficient pressure to cross the line. I also don't think they've stolen a single lineout in 2016.

The balance just isn't there in the forward pack, Wallabies can't expect to have a dominant lineout with just 3 genuine jumpers. If you actually break It down further Mumm and Simmons are the lineout specialist and whilst Coleman has improved in 2016 he still needs a lot of work at the lineout.

 

[Lorenzo]

In any event the most pressing concern for me is why even with 75% of possession, which it was at one point in the second half the Wallabies had no discernible attack pattern. With two "playmakers" no play was made. The lack of structure and urgency in attack from the whole 15 to capitalise on a break because we are playing the recycle phase game is the problem in my view AND the phases get slower and slower with each phase.

As you've said in another post, the attack pattern consists of holding onto the ball as long as possible in the hope that they miss a tackle. Of course, we have no available support players when they do miss a tackle, but that is another issue.

Holding onto the pill in order to build pressure is rather effective in super rugby (where defense is often an afterthought - 6.4 tries per match in 2016) and against the likes of Fiji. Not effective against SA and there's no evidence of increasing pressure as the phase count increases. And why would there be? They only need to chop down our not-particularly-dynamic forwards, keep an eye on that inside ball, and keep our backs honest by crowding the interior of the paddock. As much as i like them both, neither Hodge or DHP is a particularly threatening outside back.

Against the ABs, this strategy is suicidal, as they pinch our ball (or we knock it on) before we get anywhere near 7 phases or whatever Rod Kafer thinks the magic number is.

 

[NTT]

If you think that Foley being shouderd and players can be tackled without the ball while trying to score a try is OK then good on you.
Well done English teacher. Don't attack someone like that. It's not cool and will surley get you banned from the forum. Can't spell? I've had 15 beers and am typing fast on my phone. Such a dooch bag

At least we scored a try and looked look scoring a few times. Unlike the boks. That was a poor game of rugby

Sent from my SM-G928I using Tapatalk

And this ladies and gentlemen is why you don't post on forums drunk.

 

[Gnostic]

As you've said in another post, the attack pattern consists of holding onto the ball as long as possible in the hope that they miss a tackle. Of course, we have no available support players when they do miss a tackle, but that is another issue.



Holding onto the pill in order to build pressure is rather effective in super rugby (where defense is often an afterthought - 6.4 tries per match in 2016) and against the likes of Fiji. Not effective against SA and there's no evidence of increasing pressure as the phase count increases. And why would there be? They only need to chop down our not-particularly-dynamic forwards, keep an eye on that inside ball, and keep our backs honest by crowding the interior of the paddock. As much as i like them both, neither Hodge or DHP is a particularly threatening outside back.



Against the ABs, this strategy is suicidal, as they pinch our ball (or we knock it on) before we get anywhere near 7 phases or whatever Rod Kafer thinks the magic number is.

Actually they made the most metres in attack of any of the backs, maybe Kerevi ran more than Hodge, but they were both up there and DHP was the top runner and tackle buster according to the stats I saw.

 

[Lorenzo]

That's good, but they aren't people you are going to single out in a defensive strategy, are they?

I'm not criticizing their inclusion - i like them both and for different reasons - I just think that our predictable attack strategy isn't helped by not having genuine size or speed threats on the wing.

 

[Pfitzy]

Realising all this angst is important - if you could all just go over to the Rising v Rams thread and congratulate us, that'd be grand.

 

[Quick Hands]

Like I said in my post that started the too and fro, it doesn't really matter unless the actual training and strategy behind it is fixed. Why when there were 4 genuine jumpers on the field were the Wallabies only able to secure the ball at 2? Previously all the blame was heaped on Skelton for this limiting the numbers of jumpers?

I don't think selections will make much difference until the tactics and training are fixed and then I think any of the options used will be good.

In any event the most pressing concern for me is why even with 75% of possession, which it was at one point in the second half the Wallabies had no discernible attack pattern. With two "playmakers" no play was made. The lack of structure and urgency in attack from the whole 15 to capitalise on a break because we are playing the recycle phase game is the problem in my view AND the phases get slower and slower with each phase.

This year has taken the side back to the 2011-2012 Deans era in record losses, lack of actual performance and the coach talking about "taking our chances, we were the better team for large parts of the game, we are growing, we have had X number of debutants this year".

In all honesty I wouldn't be unhappy to see a clearing of the decks and in terms of game plan, some players and a couple of coaching staff. If Chieka continues as he is the few people still watching the game in Australia will turn off, because just like Deans time the players are trying but the quality of performance is just mind numbing.

I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying, but the malaise extends way below the current Wallabies coaching regime. 40% of our elite players spent the past 3 seasons being coached by Michael Foley and Richard Graham. Super coaches have these guys for far longer and many of the key skills need to be refined there.

 

[gel]

For those calling for Foley's head, who kicks goals if he goes? Not Cooper, surely?

Why not? His record is just about the same in terms of accuracy.

What do others think of a backline of 9. Genia, 10. Cooper, 11. DHP, 12. Kerevi, 13. Folaua, 14. Naivalu, 15. Foley

Not bad.

What about:

9. Genia, 10. Cooper, 11. Hodge* , 12. Kerevi, 13. Folau, 14. Naivalu, 15. DHP

And they all defend in those positions too.


I don't know what to do about the forwards - it's been all over the place. It almost looks like they are playing to KPIs or something (I know they couldn't possibly be - but it looks that way).

 

[Twoilms]

All this nonsense analysis of the backline really just serves to gloss over the fact that our Forwards lost us that game. We had clean ball from the lineout probably 20% of the time, clean ball from the scrum about 20% of the time and clean, fast ball from the ruck never (i'm exaggerating for emphasis). The only person delivering a decent forward performance was McMahon and it's no coincidence we failed to score a point after he went off. Our piggies fucking suck and thats the end of the story. None of Mumm,Simmons or Moore would make the bench for any other championship team. Sio finally had a good game after not making a single carry for two entire freaking games.

The backs were good enough, made some good runs, didn't fuck up defensively and missed a few very hard kicks. Lost the tactical kicking game but against Morne at altitude who's surprised?

 

[Dave Beat]

Regarding Folau and Hodge- Folau at his absolute attacking worst still provides more than Hodge, Hodge is basically in the team for his long range kicking and even that failed.

Hodge's D was there last night and some could say carries the D of QC (Quade Cooper) and Foley so that is far more than kicking.
He brings far more at 2nd 5 than he does on the wing, but seriously with all the pill we had last night what was created for the outside backs.
Still think out most potent back line would be 10. QC (Quade Cooper), 12. Hodge. 13. Folau and a back three that has some pace, the options that would create in attack in the outside channels (once earned) would be emence.

 

[liquor box]

Izzy and Quade do not gel. Foley understands how Izzy plays as does KB (Kurtley Beale). Cooper is not able to bring him into the game at the right time and/or Izzy cannot see the opportunities right now with QC (Quade Cooper).

So you want to drop Izzy?

 

[liquor box]

I know most people hate drop goals but I think we are missing a lot of points in most of our games.

For what ever reason we are able to string multiple phases in front of the goal posts within 20-25m in most games and then we continue to do the same without scoring points.

With Foley and Cooper in the team surely we should take some points from time to time.

I would also propose that a safer bet than kicking for a penalty from 65m would be to kick for touch, win a lineout and then kick a field goal from 20m out.