Heavyd
Arch Winning (36)
As in folded at seasons end?
Shute Shield 2018
- Thread starter gkd1169
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As in folded at seasons end?
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I'd heard that if and when they go it will be immediate. i.e. play one Saturday, gone the next.
Sydney Rugby Fan
Allen Oxlade (6)
Does that mean they will head off to Subbies? That would seem the logical place for them to play rugby moving forward...
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I'd hope that between them that the SRU and NSW Subbies could organise somewhere for them to play.
Rugby Central
Charlie Fox (21)
I'm ignoring the NRC component because I agree you are right, the creation is an ill thought out shambles with no community relevance. While they could have leveraged off SS, they didn't, and it was dumb.
But just to ask, How many Forest, Savers and Vikings players do you see at Manly Oval for a home game? Next to none because they play at the same time and there's little relevance to them. Or a better example, how many people would go to a Gordon match if Knox Grammar, Barker College, Lindfield, St Ives and Brothers, all didn't play at the same time. Then replicate that for every SS district.
Don't get me wrong, SS does what it can in the confines of the structure in which it operates. But it offers nothing for the growth of the game. It can't. Because there is a finite amount of players that can play for any one Club.
However, what I'm suggesting means a SS club can call on the players of every Club in the district, each community Club that has a players selected can proudly say "WE have x player in the SS" and will get along to support their player if match times work out.
You still get 3 games for a day at the rugby. You get more heartland fans getting to SS games. As each game is essentially a rep quality side, FTA deals are more probable. It provides a clear development pathway for players, coaches and administrators from U6 to Wallabies.
As a side benefit, the reduction in Colts in SS teams means the numbers of young players will distribute to other clubs allowing for a genuine chance of an U19s competition. This means those 17 year old school leavers get an extra year or 2 to mature before being bashed by 20 year olds. Keeping them in the game.
It is changing into something else. And maybe without full evidence. But the evidence is in on the status quo and it's a woeful indictment on the current and future state of the game in this country.
Only the SS has the ability to put on the red cape and rescue the game absent a magnanimous US Powerball winner. Even then it would just be throwing money at a failing system. Would it be so bad if SS allowed itself to change for the good of the game as a whole?
fkj
Chris McKivat (8)
Not sure how that will work with Subbies, the season has already well and truly started (3-4 rounds in). Can see the clubs being pretty upset. At best, Div 4 is a 7-team comp, so they could come in and fill the 8th spot, but I'd imagine their standard would be way too high for 4th division subbies, and that division doesn't have colts (they could potentially enter a side in Radford Cup for this).
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
A club made up of players from 3 or so district clubs is more real than, as QH points out, teams who can have blokes from any old club
Sydney Rugby Fan
Allen Oxlade (6)
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
In terms of Forest and Savers, I can tell you that both clubs fiercely guard their independence. Manly Savers are perfectly happy in the one team subbies competition, it suits the ethos of the club perfectly. Forest have a very well run club, which broadly mirrors an SS club with 4 grades and 1 grade of Colts. There's more chance of hell freezing over than Forest changing from the way they do things and why would they when what they are doing suits their purpose and is successful?
All Vikings players would either be playing colts for Manly, or subbies for Savers or Subbies for Forest, or somewhere else depending or work or uni comittments.
I agree that there should be better co-ordination and cooperation between clubs occupying the same geographic area, but I think you'll find that the resistance to this plan comes from subbies (probably more) as much as from SS clubs.
You seem to be suggesting that no one else plays on a Saturday afternoon other than 3 grades of SS? (Please correct me if this is wrong). If that is what you are advocating it's simply not feasible for a range of reasons, including ground availability. It's actually no unusual for community and junior level parts of a sport to be playing at the same time as senior parts. There's only so much time on a weekend and only so many grounds for people to play on.
I'll respectfully disagree with your plan.
Heavyd
Arch Winning (36)
Reality is Penrith will not be joining a subbies competition this year. It’s not logistically possible. Draws are set, ovals booked, ladies day arranged. Sad to here of their possible demise and think they would be a DiV 1 subbies club but it won’t happened. More likely players will drift to Blue mountains or HAC clubs which will turn them into super clubs who will steam their way to multiple premierships.
Cattledog
Sydney Middleton (9)
There's a stack of things to be worked out if this actually goes ahead. They can't just land in Subbies?
For example:
- Subbies is an amateur comp - SS is not.
- Penrith have contracted players - Subbies Clubs do not.
- Penrith Sponsors put money into a SS Club not a Subbies Club.
- Penrith Players signed up to play SS not Subbies.
- Some of these Penrith guys may already have loyalty to a subbies club (Not Penrith)
- Penrith Colts signed up to play SS Colts not subbies.
Rugby Central
Charlie Fox (21)
In terms of Forest and Savers, I can tell you that both clubs fiercely guard their independence. Manly Savers are perfectly happy in the one team subbies competition, it suits the ethos of the club perfectly. Forest have a very well run club, which broadly mirrors an SS club with 4 grades and 1 grade of Colts. There's more chance of hell freezing over than Forest changing from the way they do things and why would they when what they are doing suits their purpose and is successful?
All Vikings players would either be playing colts for Manly, or subbies for Savers or Subbies for Forest, or somewhere else depending or work or uni comittments.
I agree that there should be better co-ordination and cooperation between clubs occupying the same geographic area, but I think you'll find that the resistance to this plan comes from subbies (probably more) as much as from SS clubs.
You seem to be suggesting that no one else plays on a Saturday afternoon other than 3 grades of SS? (Please correct me if this is wrong). If that is what you are advocating it's simply not feasible for a range of reasons, including ground availability. It's actually no unusual for community and junior level parts of a sport to be playing at the same time as senior parts. There's only so much time on a weekend and only so many grounds for people to play on.
I'll respectfully disagree with your plan.
I'm not suggesting SS is the only one's to change, just to lead. Those clubs who prize their independence above all else are just as guilty for the state of rugby in this country as RA/ARU. I think you would find in Subbies, clubs would be more supportive of this kind of relationship than those against.
As for game times, you've got my point back-to-front, possibly my mistake. 3 grades, instead of 5 means the SS games can be moved, not the rest of school or Clubland rugby to stop playing. And I'm not advocating a holus bolus change from day one either. Move 3 or 4 of the games to Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon. Again, not just SS clubs making changes. Where possible, lower division clubs could move their match times. It used to happen when test rugby was played in daylight hours. Change seems hard but everybody has a stake in this.
Truly, QH, I'm glad that you disagree, I'm guessing there are many who would. It means people are thinking about it. But given the current state of Australian Rugby, disagreement in absence of an alternative is not a solution.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
I dont want it to shink.
- games are being taken to the country now.
- clubs are bulding womens teams.
Who said it was sheltered.
- it is on FTA
The trajectory is on the incline
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
I posted a suggestion that if it wants to assume the 3rd Tier mantle then it should also look to expand the number of teams by elevating 1st grade to an elite squad and then elevating the remaining grades up one as well. The elite squad would compete in a competition with a team from Canberra (Tuggeranong) and Melbourne (either a club or rep squad) while all the rest will continue to play locally.
This way the traditional club structure is maintained but the competition grows.
Dave Beat
Paul McLean (56)
That sort of model would be interesting, there was a period of time when broader teams played in the comp but it didnt last.
I think there are already to many unions within our tree over here, with ACT, and Vic being involved what union would operate that model?
Sydney Rugby Fan
Allen Oxlade (6)
The following is an excerpt from The Australian's Wayne Smith regarding the Penrith/ SRU situation - written and published yesterday:
"Time is fast running out for the battling Penrith club in the Shute Shield competition as concerns over player safety are becoming paramount, but if the club is closed there is hope that the University of Western Sydney might take up the slack for rugby in Sydney’s geographical centre.
Penrith have been a club living under a suspended death sentence since the start of the year, set strict conditions which they must meet if they are to stay alive. The club’s Shute Shield results are alarming but of overriding concern is the fact that the club appears to be playing 15 and 16-year-olds in colts football to make up the numbers, with the Sydney Rugby Union having insisted at the start of the season that Penrith must field four senior grades and three colts sides each weekend.
But while some of the younger colts players might have the physical frame to cope with that level of football, the concern is that experience-wise they may be way out of their depth, at which point the SRU could become legally liable under player welfare provisions.
Further bringing the situation to a head is the fact that Penrith will play the reigning Sydney premiers Warringah at Nepean Park tomorrow, which brings into question how much longer the Shute Shield competition can sustain an uncompetitive side before it is forced to act to protect its integrity.
So far this season, Penrith have lost 62-7 to Southern Districts, 97-0 to Sydney University and 43-10 to Gordon.
The widespread belief is that if Penrith club were not in western Sydney they would have been axed 10 years ago.
The SRU has given them an enormous amount of latitude although it has no spare resources to throw at the problem. It does, however, call into question precisely what Rugby Australia’s strategy for the area might be.
“If there is a failure to meet some fairly rigid criteria this weekend, there will be some reasonably serious consequences,” SRU president David Begg said. “We’ve given Penrith a series of strict KPIs. They’re aware of what they are. We’re aware of what they are and they are under regular review.
“My board has not made a final decision and I can say that hand on heart.”
It is understood that informal talks have been held with University of Western Sydney about a new club starting up on campus. At this stage, the 2018 season would be played out between only 11 teams — with teams, if necessary, having a bye on those weekends they were due to play Penrith — but if the club does go under, it would make sense for the university to play a role in bolstering the Shute Shield back to a dozen clubs."
"Time is fast running out for the battling Penrith club in the Shute Shield competition as concerns over player safety are becoming paramount, but if the club is closed there is hope that the University of Western Sydney might take up the slack for rugby in Sydney’s geographical centre.
Penrith have been a club living under a suspended death sentence since the start of the year, set strict conditions which they must meet if they are to stay alive. The club’s Shute Shield results are alarming but of overriding concern is the fact that the club appears to be playing 15 and 16-year-olds in colts football to make up the numbers, with the Sydney Rugby Union having insisted at the start of the season that Penrith must field four senior grades and three colts sides each weekend.
But while some of the younger colts players might have the physical frame to cope with that level of football, the concern is that experience-wise they may be way out of their depth, at which point the SRU could become legally liable under player welfare provisions.
Further bringing the situation to a head is the fact that Penrith will play the reigning Sydney premiers Warringah at Nepean Park tomorrow, which brings into question how much longer the Shute Shield competition can sustain an uncompetitive side before it is forced to act to protect its integrity.
So far this season, Penrith have lost 62-7 to Southern Districts, 97-0 to Sydney University and 43-10 to Gordon.
The widespread belief is that if Penrith club were not in western Sydney they would have been axed 10 years ago.
The SRU has given them an enormous amount of latitude although it has no spare resources to throw at the problem. It does, however, call into question precisely what Rugby Australia’s strategy for the area might be.
“If there is a failure to meet some fairly rigid criteria this weekend, there will be some reasonably serious consequences,” SRU president David Begg said. “We’ve given Penrith a series of strict KPIs. They’re aware of what they are. We’re aware of what they are and they are under regular review.
“My board has not made a final decision and I can say that hand on heart.”
It is understood that informal talks have been held with University of Western Sydney about a new club starting up on campus. At this stage, the 2018 season would be played out between only 11 teams — with teams, if necessary, having a bye on those weekends they were due to play Penrith — but if the club does go under, it would make sense for the university to play a role in bolstering the Shute Shield back to a dozen clubs."
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Some of us did
;-)
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
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