Shute Shield 2013

[WorkingClassRugger]

I'll stand up and be counted and state "I don't give a stuff about whether we have a 3rd tier or not" and, as I've said on previous posts, I believe we are deluding ourselves if we think we can emulate the 3rd tier comps which exist in NZ and RSA.

I care about the ongoing existence and traditions of club rugby and the players who want to play at that level. I'm not sure why the Shute Shield 2013 thread has become obsessed with this 3rd tier discussion, maybe someone should start a new thread.

Over the years we've seen teams dropped in both Colts and Grade to try to match the cost of running teams with the income of the clubs and I assume this will continue.

I'm not convinced that drawing parallels with the NRL is valid as it is a national competition and the reduction in the number of teams has been as much about travel costs as having to pay all the players.

The SS should be managed by the SRU and NSWRU and the ARU should butt out. They've done nothing to assist the SS in recent years and really should just worry about the Wallabies. If the ARU believes another tier is required to feed the Wallabies then it has to work WITH the clubs not dictate what they should or should not do or create other mickey mouse competitions that nobody is interested in.

I think you vastly underestimate the interest in a third tier competition that exists in the general Rugby public that don't have ties with a Sydney or Brisbane club. I'd say that would be the majority of fans. There is a sentiment among many of them that the ARC a step in the right direction, but, a poorly executed one. I understand you love club Rugby and your club in particular but just because traditionally they formed the elite level of Rugby in amateurism doesn't mean that it can continue forever.

Other nations have recognised this, we need to as well. We need to look to create a more elite level be it through the use of clubs, universities or some sort of provincial set ups. The SS doesn't represent the majority of fans and what they want. I know many who have never even watched a SS game and others who have and echo my earlier remark that it was good without reaching quite the level we need.

 

[Dave Beat]

I think you vastly underestimate the interest in a third tier competition that exists in the general Rugby public that don't have ties with a Sydney or Brisbane club. I'd say that would be the majority of fans. There is a sentiment among many of them that the ARC a step in the right direction, but, a poorly executed one. I understand you love club Rugby and your club in particular but just because traditionally they formed the elite level of Rugby in amateurism doesn't mean that it can continue forever.

Other nations have recognised this, we need to as well. We need to look to create a more elite level be it through the use of clubs, universities or some sort of provincial set ups. The SS doesn't represent the majority of fans and what they want. I know many who have never even watched a SS game and others who have and echo my earlier remark that it was good without reaching quite the level we need.

Who does Working Class Support?
I'm much the same, enjoy the club rugby - make a day of it.
3T as I said before, if it competes with the Super Comp, or Club Rugby I believe it will get limited support.
I believe if it is post club, & S15 more clubs, super provinces and fans will embrace it.

 

[the coach]

I think you vastly underestimate the interest in a third tier competition that exists in the general Rugby public that don't have ties with a Sydney or Brisbane club. I'd say that would be the majority of fans. There is a sentiment among many of them that the ARC a step in the right direction, but, a poorly executed one. I understand you love club Rugby and your club in particular but just because traditionally they formed the elite level of Rugby in amateurism doesn't mean that it can continue forever.

Other nations have recognised this, we need to as well. We need to look to create a more elite level be it through the use of clubs, universities or some sort of provincial set ups. The SS doesn't represent the majority of fans and what they want. I know many who have never even watched a SS game and others who have and echo my earlier remark that it was good without reaching quite the level we need.

For the record:
(1) I don't underestimate the interest in a third tier comp...I'm just stating that none of the suggestions offered so far interest me
(2) My interest and love for club rugby has nothing to do with my club's success...if it did I'd have lost interest years ago
(3) Re the statement in your last paragraph: "we need to as well" --- WHY?

 

[Dave Beat]

For the record:
(1) I don't underestimate the interest in a third tier comp.I'm just stating that none of the suggestions offered so far interest me
(2) My interest and love for club rugby has nothing to do with my club's success.if it did I'd have lost interest years ago
(3) Re the statement in your last paragraph: "we need to as well" --- WHY?

Why, because I enjoy getting out to watch rugby live.
Taking the family to the Tah's or Tests regulary hits the pocket hard.
Club rugby, dont miss a home game - and it would be good to stretch the season out longer, whether that be a 3T, or a full home and away - not fussed.
I do think a 3T after SS & S15 would strengthen our S15 & Test squad - the relative threads explain numerous difficulties or excuses.

 

[the coach]

Why, because I enjoy getting out to watch rugby live.
Taking the family to the Tah's or Tests regulary hits the pocket hard.
Club rugby, dont miss a home game - and it would be good to stretch the season out longer, whether that be a 3T, or a full home and away - not fussed.
I do think a 3T after SS & S15 would strengthen our S15 & Test squad - the relative threads explain numerous difficulties or excuses.

Agree with you completely about full home and away.
I travel to away games as well as home to follow my team whenever possible and watch all 4 grades.
I love the relaxed friendly atmosphere and the interaction between supporters and rival players.
Some of the 3T models that are being proposed would make it difficult for supporters to attend away games.
I understand the argument that a 3T might strengthen rugby at the rep level, but I don't agree we can't get the same result without it.
I'd prefer to see the effort put into strengthening club rugby rather than create some new competition which fans struggle to align with eg ARC.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

I'm not convinced that drawing parallels with the NRL is valid as it is a national competition and the reduction in the number of teams has been as much about travel costs as having to pay all the players.
/quote]
There is your answer a National comp or at least an east coast version with teams from Sydney, Brisbane, canberra and Melbourne. 2 Grades and 1 Colts. Current SS sides can still exist with reduced costs leaving those social players and those still trying to make it. Still have traditional clubs with local following still going to games with increased coverage and media attention on the "expanded' comp to get those crowds in. Costs might be higher but revenues may be too with ARU support and media fees

 

[Inside Shoulder]

If there's to be a 3rd tier surely it has to be substantially without adverse impact on SS or equivalents.
Otherwise the risk is too great - we'll bugger SS and after 1 season decide that 3rd tier is uneconomic.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Who does Working Class Support?
I'm much the same, enjoy the club rugby - make a day of it.
3T as I said before, if it competes with the Super Comp, or Club Rugby I believe it will get limited support.
I believe if it is post club, & S15 more clubs, super provinces and fans will embrace it.

To answer your question Randwick.

It would be silly if it competed with Super Rugby which already overlaps with much of club Rugby. It should be after club Rugby yet during the Rugby Championship to provide Australian Rugby with an active competition to maintain enough depth if needed for the Wallabies.

The Coach,

The "we need to as well" I thought was clear. "We" is collective for the sport in Australia. This includes all stakeholders. The rest is reasonable clear.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

Firstly, probably not important but relevant for you to know where I'm coming from. If you think I don't care about those who play for love please know that I am a coach and administrator of a rugby club that receives NO funding from the ARU, is unable to charge gate entry, is never shown on the ABC (or anywhere else for that matter) and no players, coaches or administrators receive any financial return, even when we have to pay for gear at the club out of our own pocket.

Howy, you mentioned that I haven’t been part of SS for a while. You’re right, I don’t have the time between my Subbies club and kid’s sport. But please don’t think that means I don’t want to. Hence why I suggest there needs to be a look at other options.

DB, You're right that night games are not perfect for young families. And I do believe I mentioned a couple of options, not just night games. This is about everyone who loves rugby and the long term future of the game. You sing praises of the $120 season family pass. That's an awesome deal, no doubt. But that's not going to pay for the kind of talent needed to draw TV broadcasters interest. It costs a little over $20K for the ABC to show just one SS match. That figure came from my discussions with the ARU on an unrelated matter. You cannot support a professional competition on an amateur ethos.

IS, a truer word has not been spoken when you say "This why I keep banging on about the raison d'etre for the ARU: they don't exist for their own prosperity or for 150 contracted pro players they exist for the good the thousands of weekend warriors: the people who bleed union." What's missing is the acknowledgment that only a very small percentage of those people are directly involved in SS.

SS Should be a flagship, not just a club competition. SS should be the foundation of the 3rd Tier. However, you can't attract elite players with the condition that they must make considerations for the social weekend warrior. Randwick and Sydney Uni have in the past entered teams into the Subbies comp. There is nothing stopping other clubs doing the same so players can continue to play for the Club they have always bled for. By creating a genuinely top tier SS competition you will more likely attract rugby fans than lose them. I know probably 40-50 guys in my club alone who would attend SS matches regularly if given the chance. Multiply that by the 50+ Clubs running around Subbies as well as all the school age rugby players and crowd numbers would rise considerably.

The sentiment you imply unintentionally, and I disagree with, is that SS rugby has no attraction, fan base, or fundraising capability without the lower grades. If that is the case then the club should consider whether it should be competing in SS. People mention how expensive it is to go to the league or AFL, yet families pay their money year after year. Why, because they are seeing fulltime professionals give their all in great facilities week in week out. Even Sydney Uni, with all their advantages have their field turned to a swimming pool/mud pit after a bit of rain.

The sad reality is you cannot have it all. You cannot have amateurs as part of a professional set up and expect it do well in the longer term. Like it or not (and I don’t by the way) sport is a product for consumption. If you want the money to get down to the grassroots you need to provide people with something worth investing in. The current arrangement simply makes amateurism expensive.

Some good points RC. Though what I have highlighted is something I disagree with. It's not just the fundraising capabilities of the lower grades that is pertinent to them hanging around.

It is my belief, that to execute effective change, you must do it while still acknowledging the traditions that made you great in the first place. Hence the lower grades importance to the clubs.

The fact is, that there is still a large number of traditionalist Club Presidents and Members of the SRU Board who believe the only way forward is to continue with 7 teams minimum per club. Their argument is always based around the question...'what will you do when injuries hit you?". And it is a valid question. The issue is, that the answer is being delivered looking back at the old ways things were done rather than with an eye on the future.

I'm not saying my proposal is the ants pants and the only way it can be done. But what I am saying is, that if significant structural change isn't made to the fabric of the competition then it will inevitably die. And it won't be a slow painful death, it will be swift a ruthless.

And will rugby in this country have the ability for the phoenix to rise from the ashes?

 

[hawktrain]

Every time I read/listen to discussion about the 3rd tier, I always end up at one point, no matter how long it takes me to get there: if as much money and effort was put into assisting/stabilising the SS (and other club comps) as there is put into thinking of other ideas for the 3rd tier and then ultimately (if it even happens) implementing a new competition, would we even need another 3rd tier comp?

 

[Snort]

We actually have a "third tier". In NSW, it's the Shute Shield (if one allows that the top tier is international and the second is provincial). All previous attempts to construct a third tier have failed due to lack of interest. Instead of repeating those debacles, the only sensible thing to do is strengthen the existing third tier so that it produces strong players for the Super 15 franchises.

Look, I know that there's no way we wil lever go back to the days before professional Rugby. But take, for instance, Nick Farr-Jones. A good schoolboy player, but not earmarked as a superstar because at Newington he played behind the NSW Schools scrum-half. So he went into Colts and improved. Then he worked his way through the grades at University. Once he established himself in First Grade, he improved further because every week he was being tested against tough, seasoned opponents. All of that seems to me to be a pretty good way of producing good representative players. Farr-Jones went from the Newington 2nd XV to the Australian Test side in five years.

But compare that to Nic Stirzaker. Australian Schools scrum-half. First year out of school, popped out of Colts to appear in a First Grade game. He's now, what? three years out of school? And he's on the bench for the Melbourne Rebels. I'm not having a crack at Stirzaker here, far from it, but he's played a handful of First Grade games for University, and a whole bunch of games against players his own age, and he's a full time professional. It seems to me to be a problem that we pick guys to be professionals on the basis of what they did when they were 18 (or, let's face it, 16, because that's when the schoolboy selectors mark you out). We don't pick people on the basis of how they perform against good adult opposition.

That's what the Shute Shield should provide - good adult opposition to toughen up and test prospective representative players. And in a sane world, Rugby officials would be doing all they could to build up that tier of the game instead of looking for reasons to downgrade it even further.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Look, I know that there's no way we wil lever go back to the days before professional Rugby. But take, for instance, Nick Farr-Jones. A good schoolboy player, but not earmarked as a superstar because at Newington he played behind the NSW Schools scrum-half. So he went into Colts and improved. Then he worked his way through the grades at University. Once he established himself in First Grade, he improved further because every week he was being tested against tough, seasoned opponents. All of that seems to me to be a pretty good way of producing good representative players. Farr-Jones went from the Newington 2nd XV to the Australian Test side in five years.

Reserve for NSW IIs.
But the point remains a good one.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[howyagoin]

We actually have a "third tier". In NSW, it's the Shute Shield (if one allows that the top tier is international and the second is provincial). All previous attempts to construct a third tier have failed due to lack of interest. Instead of repeating those debacles, the only sensible thing to do is strengthen the existing third tier so that it produces strong players for the Super 15 franchises.

Look, I know that there's no way we wil lever go back to the days before professional Rugby. But take, for instance, Nick Farr-Jones. A good schoolboy player, but not earmarked as a superstar because at Newington he played behind the NSW Schools scrum-half. So he went into Colts and improved. Then he worked his way through the grades at University. Once he established himself in First Grade, he improved further because every week he was being tested against tough, seasoned opponents. All of that seems to me to be a pretty good way of producing good representative players. Farr-Jones went from the Newington 2nd XV to the Australian Test side in five years.

But compare that to Nic Stirzaker. Australian Schools scrum-half. First year out of school, popped out of Colts to appear in a First Grade game. He's now, what? three years out of school? And he's on the bench for the Melbourne Rebels. I'm not having a crack at Stirzaker here, far from it, but he's played a handful of First Grade games for University, and a whole bunch of games against players his own age, and he's a full time professional. It seems to me to be a problem that we pick guys to be professionals on the basis of what they did when they were 18 (or, let's face it, 16, because that's when the schoolboy selectors mark you out). We don't pick people on the basis of how they perform against good adult opposition.

That's what the Shute Shield should provide - good adult opposition to toughen up and test prospective representative players. And in a sane world, Rugby officials would be doing all they could to build up that tier of the game instead of looking for reasons to downgrade it even further.

same can be said about Kurtley Beale.... couple of years in 1st grade would of done him wonders rather than stick him straight into S15 that first season where he struggled a lot...

 

[No.8]

I think at the end of the day we simply need to strengthen the current comps we have, we need to pump more money into them, we need more marketing and advertising around them - ABC need to be given the chance/money to play maybe 3 LIVE games a week - i.e Friday Night, Saturday arvo and Sunday Arvo...really I would like it to be on a Channel like ONE - but the chances of that happening is pretty much zero...

Then at the end of the season maybe a 6 week comp for the best teams in Australia out of the ACT/NSW/QLD/Melb comps - playing it much like the ITM comp - i.e mid week games etc - ALL ON TV.

Also where Aus rugby really fucked up and its hurt aus rugby is only having Super Rugby on Foxtel and no free-to-air games...we need free-to-air back.

Just my 2 cents...simple and I think effective...

 

[Hugie]

No 8,

Completely agree. As soon as you start a new comp/tier you will attract costs, many of them fixed and contracted, ie you have the cost even if you don't have an income. This is a dangerous business model.
I strongly agree that we should strengthen the existing comps (SS, country rugby etc) and have an end of season play off.

Further I'd be pushing money into the districts on a pay for performance basis. I think the ARU should contract the districts (including country districts) to develop and grow the game in their district via the local junior clubs, running a local CHS and CCC comp. If they meet set targets for their district then they get paid. They can then use the money to employ coaches/development staff/ player payments. If development isn't happening in a district no payments are made and the ARU needs to intervene to fix, ie all districts should be meeting target all the time, if they don't not only don't they get the money they get an uncomfortable visit from the ARU to find out what went wrong and what's being done about it.

Responsibility for rugby development needs to be pushed down to grass roots level as much as possible. Growing the base is the only way we can get Australian rugby on a stronger footing.

 

[No.8]

No 8,

Completely agree. As soon as you start a new comp/tier you will attract costs, many of them fixed and contracted, ie you have the cost even if you don't have an income. This is a dangerous business model.
I strongly agree that we should strengthen the existing comps (SS, country rugby etc) and have an end of season play off.

Further I'd be pushing money into the districts on a pay for performance basis. I think the ARU should contract the districts (including country districts) to develop and grow the game in their district via the local junior clubs, running a local CHS and CCC comp. If they meet set targets for their district then they get paid. They can then use the money to employ coaches/development staff/ player payments. If development isn't happening in a district no payments are made and the ARU needs to intervene to fix, ie all districts should be meeting target all the time, if they don't not only don't they get the money they get an uncomfortable visit from the ARU to find out what went wrong and what's being done about it.

Responsibility for rugby development needs to be pushed down to grass roots level as much as possible. Growing the base is the only way we can get Australian rugby on a stronger footing.

Could not agree more mate - with the current "system" they have at the moment it is not professional and not up to the standed of other major rugby nations in the world...

I get the feeling Australia rugby has got its head just above the water fighting to stay up...I think the next 5-10 years will really determine if Aus will stay as a top 5 rugby nation...

 

[the coach]

Points system for 2013 attached.
Not sure if there's any changes from last year.

 

[howyagoin]

Bet Sydney Uni can still get 15 players with super contracts under that points tally though

 

[the coach]

Bet Sydney Uni can still get 15 players with super contracts under that points tally though

I'm sure you'll be proved correct, but it must be getting harder each year.
At the start of last year they had several players who had just signed S15 contracts so didn't attract the points and of course they also get discounts for years of service. It will be interesting to see what sort of team they'll be able to put on the field at play off time.
BTW the team points are listed each week (after the games) on the Waratah website for those who don't know so you can look at each player and see how many points they have and try to work out how they got them!

 

[Eyes and Ears]

I'm sure you'll be proved correct, but it must be getting harder each year.
At the start of last year they had several players who had just signed S15 contracts so didn't attract the points and of course they also get discounts for years of service. It will be interesting to see what sort of team they'll be able to put on the field at play off time.
BTW the team points are listed each week (after the games) on the Waratah website for those who don't know so you can look at each player and see how many points they have and try to work out how they got them!

Most of them have played for the Club for >5 years and attract very few points or even none.