Shute Shield 2013

[BellyTwoBlues]

I put forward a proposal end of 2011 to 'split' the competition into two divisions.

The first would be the Premiership Competition - containing 1st and 2nd Grade and 1 squad of U20s players for Colts.
The second would be the Championship Competition - effectively containing 3rd Grade, 4th Grade and lower grade Colts.

The requirement would then have been that all clubs must field teams in the Premiership Competition. If the clubs could not field teams in the Championship Competition, they dont have to, and they wont be fined for it like we were in 09,10,11.

I state here that fining us, $2500 per team in those years did NOTHING to help us field 7 teams. All it served was a cash grab for NSWRU from a struggling club.

There would then be any number of additional 'recruitment rules' the competition could have in place based on this structure to ensure that all teams in the Premier division will be competitive. If a club couldn't field teams in the Championship, then the hole could be plugged by any of the ambitious Subbies clubs.

This would still allow the clubs to field all grades if they wish, thus providing for the continuation of strong beer and bbq sales whilst also providing for high performance development.

Alas, it was laughed out of the room. Cest la vie.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

There's not even a 'Contact Us' on the website...can't receive criticism that way!

There is a contact us on the NSWRUGBY website but only if you want to purchase membership packages[/quote]

My point precisely T&F

 

[Scott Allen]

I put forward a proposal end of 2011 to 'split' the competition into two divisions.

The first would be the Premiership Competition - containing 1st and 2nd Grade and 1 squad of U20s players for Colts.
The second would be the Championship Competition - effectively containing 3rd Grade, 4th Grade and lower grade Colts.

The requirement would then have been that all clubs must field teams in the Premiership Competition. If the clubs could not field teams in the Championship Competition, they dont have to, and they wont be fined for it like we were in 09,10,11.

I state here that fining us, $2500 per team in those years did NOTHING to help us field 7 teams. All it served was a cash grab for NSWRU from a struggling club.

There would then be any number of additional 'recruitment rules' the competition could have in place based on this structure to ensure that all teams in the Premier division will be competitive. If a club couldn't field teams in the Championship, then the hole could be plugged by any of the ambitious Subbies clubs.

This would still allow the clubs to field all grades if they wish, thus providing for the continuation of strong beer and bbq sales whilst also providing for high performance development.

Alas, it was laughed out of the room. Cest la vie.

I am laughing as well Belly. Imagine a bloody good (and common-sense) idea like this ever getting up. What were you thinking!

You are, like a number of us, similar to Don Quixote! We keep tilting at windmills trying to achieve change but never really getting anywhere. One day they will listen and we will move forward!

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

I am laughing as well Belly. Imagine a bloody good (and common-sense) idea like this ever getting up. What were you thinking!

You are, like a number of us, similar to Don Quixote! We keep tilting at windmills trying to achieve change but never really getting anywhere. One day they will listen and we will move forward!

That one day had better had come quick. Or it will be gone forever!

 

[Scott Allen]

That one day had better had come quick. Or it will be gone forever!

Amen Brother!

 

[Interested party]

I put forward a proposal end of 2011 to 'split' the competition into two divisions.

The first would be the Premiership Competition - containing 1st and 2nd Grade and 1 squad of U20s players for Colts.
The second would be the Championship Competition - effectively containing 3rd Grade, 4th Grade and lower grade Colts.

The requirement would then have been that all clubs must field teams in the Premiership Competition. If the clubs could not field teams in the Championship Competition, they dont have to, and they wont be fined for it like we were in 09,10,11.

I state here that fining us, $2500 per team in those years did NOTHING to help us field 7 teams. All it served was a cash grab for NSWRU from a struggling club.

There would then be any number of additional 'recruitment rules' the competition could have in place based on this structure to ensure that all teams in the Premier division will be competitive. If a club couldn't field teams in the Championship, then the hole could be plugged by any of the ambitious Subbies clubs.

This would still allow the clubs to field all grades if they wish, thus providing for the continuation of strong beer and bbq sales whilst also providing for high performance development.

Alas, it was laughed out of the room. Cest la vie.

The Premiership clubs have feet in both camps...amateur and professional...it's time they decided...or the ARU will do it for them.
Having seven teams in this day and age is costly...4th graders and 3rd colts get strapped, have jerseys supplied and have medical attention...all costs money.
The idea of having a split competition and allowing clubs to have less teams IF they wanted merits discussion.
The ARU invests about $1million in the Shute Shield with the grants given to the 12 clubs....are they getting value for money? What is this money supposed to achieve? Are the clubs accountable?
What other sections of Australian rugby get this sort of money or for that matter any money?...Subbies? Juniors?....

 

[I like to watch]

The SS/colts provide about 40% of the players that make up the player pool for Oz Super franchises.
Without that Rugby in Australia is dead.
Just as it would if the Qld infrastructure dissolved.
I reckon that's value for money.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The Premiership clubs have feet in both camps.amateur and professional.it's time they decided.or the ARU will do it for them.
Having seven teams in this day and age is costly.4th graders and 3rd colts get strapped, have jerseys supplied and have medical attention.all costs money.
The idea of having a split competition and allowing clubs to have less teams IF they wanted merits discussion.
The ARU invests about $1million in the Shute Shield with the grants given to the 12 clubs..are they getting value for money? What is this money supposed to achieve? Are the clubs accountable?
What other sections of Australian rugby get this sort of money or for that matter any money?.Subbies? Juniors?..

Isn't this why, if lower grades were made optional, there would not be any?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The SS/colts provide about 40% of the players that make up the player pool for Oz Super franchises.
Without that Rugby in Australia is dead.
Just as it would if the Qld infrastructure dissolved.
I reckon that's value for money.

We can do better than that to justify the $1m:
What better have they got to spend OUR money on?
As Billy Bragg says and it applies to SS:
"The temptation to pull the precious things we have apart
To see how they work
Must be resisted for they never fit together again"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Dave Beat]

I'll also post the same in the 3T.
The only change to the Shute Shield I'd like to see, move it forward and a full home and away.
With regards to the 3T, whether it be only having 2 grades and a colts, a rep type structure, a top 6 structure, an academy structure, a university model - I ask the question;

Does the 3T in NZ, or SA compete with the Super Rugby rugby season, or their club comps?

We have a void after the Super and Club comps that they do not have - instead of tampering with clubs why not let them grow and develop talent to assist in filling this void. It would keep the fringe WOBs match fit, it would provide the potential Super players the ability to show their wears.

Cheers

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

I'll also post the same in the 3T.
The only change to the Shute Shield I'd like to see, move it forward and a full home and away.
With regards to the 3T, whether it be only having 2 grades and a colts, a rep type structure, a top 6 structure, an academy structure, a university model - I ask the question;

Does the 3T in NZ, or SA compete with the Super Rugby rugby season, or their club comps?

We have a void after the Super and Club comps that they do not have - instead of tampering with clubs why not let them grow and develop talent to assist in filling this void. It would keep the fringe WOBs match fit, it would provide the potential Super players the ability to show their wears.

Cheers

Understand where you're coming from DB. The issue in this country though is, the players association are all too powerful and dictate how many games professional players can play a year. Fringe WOBs players will most likely be 'banned' by their association from playing in any post season or late season 3T.

And a lot of our rugby grounds contain turf cricket wickets. Ground availability would be an issue. And going to the larger Blue Tongue Stadium type venue is too costly. And love it or hate it, any 3T structure without Sydney Uni as a stand alone will not be supported by ARU/NSWRU/whoeverRU. They have too many friends in high places. If it was post season, where would they play?

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

The Premiership clubs have feet in both camps.amateur and professional.it's time they decided.or the ARU will do it for them.
Having seven teams in this day and age is costly.4th graders and 3rd colts get strapped, have jerseys supplied and have medical attention.all costs money.
The idea of having a split competition and allowing clubs to have less teams IF they wanted merits discussion.
The ARU invests about $1million in the Shute Shield with the grants given to the 12 clubs..are they getting value for money? What is this money supposed to achieve? Are the clubs accountable?
What other sections of Australian rugby get this sort of money or for that matter any money?.Subbies? Juniors?..

Too many old fuddy duddies want the status quo of 7 teams as a minimum to remain though.

Until they're convinced the ways of the 70s aren't relevant now, absolutely nothing will change.

 

[Dave Beat]

Understand where you're coming from DB. The issue in this country though is, the players association are all too powerful and dictate how many games professional players can play a year. Fringe WOBs players will most likely be 'banned' by their association from playing in any post season or late season 3T.

And a lot of our rugby grounds contain turf cricket wickets. Ground availability would be an issue. And going to the larger Blue Tongue Stadium type venue is too costly. And love it or hate it, any 3T structure without Sydney Uni as a stand alone will not be supported by ARU/NSWRU/whoeverRU. They have too many friends in high places. If it was post season, where would they play?

Belly, they'd just have to man up then.
I'd have no issues if Uni was in there standing alone, they do deserve to be there.
The likes of Coleman, Manly has a number as well who are fringe and it would provide a great stepping stone.
The paddocks, good point - I dont think cricket is played at Rat Park, Concord, TG, Woolara - 4 grounds in variant geographic locations.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

I still think the split I mentioned can work. Hardly surprising I know.

The clubs who struggle financially can still only concentrate on Premiership or if they wanted just on Championship to rebuild. The clubs who don't struggle for numbers and finances will continue to field all 7 teams. But with the Premiership teams within the club being the main focus of high performance development. Any holes that need plugging will be picked up by the Balmain's, Drummoyne's of the world who have a bottomless pit of $$ and who have a history of going out and buying teams.

As I said though, any number of competition rules would need to be drafted to ensure all Premiership teams are competitive across the entire competition. No point Parra have 10 first grade players happy to play 3rd grade just to win a Championship Competition when Club B are getting pumped by 50 in Premiership.

The old dirty word, 'draft' could be applied in a fairer sense here.

 

[Andrew B Cox]

I put forward a proposal end of 2011 to 'split' the competition into two divisions.

The first would be the Premiership Competition - containing 1st and 2nd Grade and 1 squad of U20s players for Colts.
The second would be the Championship Competition - effectively containing 3rd Grade, 4th Grade and lower grade Colts.

The requirement would then have been that all clubs must field teams in the Premiership Competition. If the clubs could not field teams in the Championship Competition, they dont have to, and they wont be fined for it like we were in 09,10,11.

I state here that fining us, $2500 per team in those years did NOTHING to help us field 7 teams. All it served was a cash grab for NSWRU from a struggling club.

There would then be any number of additional 'recruitment rules' the competition could have in place based on this structure to ensure that all teams in the Premier division will be competitive. If a club couldn't field teams in the Championship, then the hole could be plugged by any of the ambitious Subbies clubs.

This would still allow the clubs to field all grades if they wish, thus providing for the continuation of strong beer and bbq sales whilst also providing for high performance development.

Alas, it was laughed out of the room. Cest la vie.

The NSWRU and ARU have, since the late nineties, tried to rationalise the Shute Shield without having to make any tough decisions. They tried to punt Uni and Wests, only to have the club presidents take the path of least resistance and punt expansion clubs Canberra and Newcastle. When I see how aggressive Uni are at success, I have to admire them - they've looked into the belly of the beast and don't like what they saw.

Since that time, they've tried to apply natural attrition. Reducing funding, applying fines to struggling clubs and generally allowing player fees to go unfettered.

Now they're linking facilities to funding. In short, if you've got cash, the ARU will give you more.

So the upshot of the brave new world left by JON is 'if you're a club in a developing or challenged locale, just hurry up and die will you'.

'It's so much easier to manage Rugby if we keep it tight on the North Shore and Eastern Suburbs.'

 

[Andrew B Cox]

I put forward a proposal end of 2011 to 'split' the competition into two divisions.

The first would be the Premiership Competition - containing 1st and 2nd Grade and 1 squad of U20s players for Colts.
The second would be the Championship Competition - effectively containing 3rd Grade, 4th Grade and lower grade Colts.

The requirement would then have been that all clubs must field teams in the Premiership Competition. If the clubs could not field teams in the Championship Competition, they dont have to, and they wont be fined for it like we were in 09,10,11.

I state here that fining us, $2500 per team in those years did NOTHING to help us field 7 teams. All it served was a cash grab for NSWRU from a struggling club.

There would then be any number of additional 'recruitment rules' the competition could have in place based on this structure to ensure that all teams in the Premier division will be competitive. If a club couldn't field teams in the Championship, then the hole could be plugged by any of the ambitious Subbies clubs.

This would still allow the clubs to field all grades if they wish, thus providing for the continuation of strong beer and bbq sales whilst also providing for high performance development.

Alas, it was laughed out of the room. Cest la vie.

The NSWRU and ARU have, since the late nineties, tried to rationalise the Shute Shield without having to make any tough decisions. They tried to punt Uni and Wests, only to have the club presidents take the path of least resistance and punt expansion clubs Canberra and Newcastle. When I see how aggressive Uni are at success, I have to admire them - they've looked into the belly of the beast and don't like what they saw.

Since that time, they've tried to apply natural attrition. Reducing funding, applying fines to struggling clubs and generally allowing player fees to go unfettered.

Now they're linking facilities to funding. In short, if you've got cash, the ARU will give you more.

So the upshot of the brave new world left by JON is 'if you're a club in a developing or challenged locale, just hurry up and die will you'.

'It's so much easier to manage Rugby if we keep it tight on the North Shore and Eastern Suburbs.'

 

[en_force_er]

I think it would be sensible to have the "social" aspects of each club split off and play whatever level of subbies is appropriative based on player number and quality of players.

One thing's for sure, the club's social teams NEED to still exist.

 

[Rugby Central]

Firstly, probably not important but relevant for you to know where I'm coming from. If you think I don't care about those who play for love please know that I am a coach and administrator of a rugby club that receives NO funding from the ARU, is unable to charge gate entry, is never shown on the ABC (or anywhere else for that matter) and no players, coaches or administrators receive any financial return, even when we have to pay for gear at the club out of our own pocket.

Howy, you mentioned that I haven’t been part of SS for a while. You’re right, I don’t have the time between my Subbies club and kid’s sport. But please don’t think that means I don’t want to. Hence why I suggest there needs to be a look at other options.

DB, You're right that night games are not perfect for young families. And I do believe I mentioned a couple of options, not just night games. This is about everyone who loves rugby and the long term future of the game. You sing praises of the $120 season family pass. That's an awesome deal, no doubt. But that's not going to pay for the kind of talent needed to draw TV broadcasters interest. It costs a little over $20K for the ABC to show just one SS match. That figure came from my discussions with the ARU on an unrelated matter. You cannot support a professional competition on an amateur ethos.

IS, a truer word has not been spoken when you say "This why I keep banging on about the raison d'etre for the ARU: they don't exist for their own prosperity or for 150 contracted pro players they exist for the good the thousands of weekend warriors: the people who bleed union." What's missing is the acknowledgment that only a very small percentage of those people are directly involved in SS.

SS Should be a flagship, not just a club competition. SS should be the foundation of the 3rd Tier. However, you can't attract elite players with the condition that they must make considerations for the social weekend warrior. Randwick and Sydney Uni have in the past entered teams into the Subbies comp. There is nothing stopping other clubs doing the same so players can continue to play for the Club they have always bled for. By creating a genuinely top tier SS competition you will more likely attract rugby fans than lose them. I know probably 40-50 guys in my club alone who would attend SS matches regularly if given the chance. Multiply that by the 50+ Clubs running around Subbies as well as all the school age rugby players and crowd numbers would rise considerably.

The sentiment you imply unintentionally, and I disagree with, is that SS rugby has no attraction, fan base, or fundraising capability without the lower grades. If that is the case then the club should consider whether it should be competing in SS. People mention how expensive it is to go to the league or AFL, yet families pay their money year after year. Why, because they are seeing fulltime professionals give their all in great facilities week in week out. Even Sydney Uni, with all their advantages have their field turned to a swimming pool/mud pit after a bit of rain.

The sad reality is you cannot have it all. You cannot have amateurs as part of a professional set up and expect it do well in the longer term. Like it or not (and I don’t by the way) sport is a product for consumption. If you want the money to get down to the grassroots you need to provide people with something worth investing in. The current arrangement simply makes amateurism expensive.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Firstly, probably not important but relevant for you to know where I'm coming from. If you think I don't care about those who play for love please know that I am a coach and administrator of a rugby club that receives NO funding from the ARU, is unable to charge gate entry, is never shown on the ABC (or anywhere else for that matter) and no players, coaches or administrators receive any financial return, even when we have to pay for gear at the club out of our own pocket.

Howy, you mentioned that I haven’t been part of SS for a while. You’re right, I don’t have the time between my Subbies club and kid’s sport. But please don’t think that means I don’t want to. Hence why I suggest there needs to be a look at other options.

DB, You're right that night games are not perfect for young families. And I do believe I mentioned a couple of options, not just night games. This is about everyone who loves rugby and the long term future of the game. You sing praises of the $120 season family pass. That's an awesome deal, no doubt. But that's not going to pay for the kind of talent needed to draw TV broadcasters interest. It costs a little over $20K for the ABC to show just one SS match. That figure came from my discussions with the ARU on an unrelated matter. You cannot support a professional competition on an amateur ethos.

IS, a truer word has not been spoken when you say "This why I keep banging on about the raison d'etre for the ARU: they don't exist for their own prosperity or for 150 contracted pro players they exist for the good the thousands of weekend warriors: the people who bleed union." What's missing is the acknowledgment that only a very small percentage of those people are directly involved in SS.

SS Should be a flagship, not just a club competition. SS should be the foundation of the 3rd Tier. However, you can't attract elite players with the condition that they must make considerations for the social weekend warrior. Randwick and Sydney Uni have in the past entered teams into the Subbies comp. There is nothing stopping other clubs doing the same so players can continue to play for the Club they have always bled for. By creating a genuinely top tier SS competition you will more likely attract rugby fans than lose them. I know probably 40-50 guys in my club alone who would attend SS matches regularly if given the chance. Multiply that by the 50+ Clubs running around Subbies as well as all the school age rugby players and crowd numbers would rise considerably.

The sentiment you imply unintentionally, and I disagree with, is that SS rugby has no attraction, fan base, or fundraising capability without the lower grades. If that is the case then the club should consider whether it should be competing in SS. People mention how expensive it is to go to the league or AFL, yet families pay their money year after year. Why, because they are seeing fulltime professionals give their all in great facilities week in week out. Even Sydney Uni, with all their advantages have their field turned to a swimming pool/mud pit after a bit of rain.

The sad reality is you cannot have it all. You cannot have amateurs as part of a professional set up and expect it do well in the longer term. Like it or not (and I don’t by the way) sport is a product for consumption. If you want the money to get down to the grassroots you need to provide people with something worth investing in. The current arrangement simply makes amateurism expensive.

Some very interesting thoughts to take on and digest. To use the SS as the base for a Third Tier we will need to recognise that some rationalisation must occur. How popular that would be is fairly self evident. Many current clubmen would need to fall back into subbies (still play for the club but not exclusively among themselves, which if you asked me would actually be a good thing for subbies) and scheduling would need to be carefully done.

I agree with the sentiment that is about what you present as a product. I know many RL fans who have admitted that they have enjoyed watching SS games but they just needed to be of a slightly higher quality to truly draw them in as regular spectators.

The major question I have is, how best to achieve this goal? And how do you get clubs with traditional rivalries to agree to one or the other reaching the top tier. I for one would like to see (and I know this will never, ever happen) clubs looking to join forces to create merged entities in order to compete. Makes sense for Manly and Warringah, Norths and Gordon, Randwick and Easts and Penrith and Parramatta to look to do this as it would provide a good 7 team base. That way you can keep all current clubs involved in some way.

I personally think the SS could form the basis of a really good and entertaining third tier but not in its current guise. One that could attract interest from spectators and broadcasters alike.

 

[the coach]

I'll stand up and be counted and state "I don't give a stuff about whether we have a 3rd tier or not" and, as I've said on previous posts, I believe we are deluding ourselves if we think we can emulate the 3rd tier comps which exist in NZ and RSA.

I care about the ongoing existence and traditions of club rugby and the players who want to play at that level. I'm not sure why the Shute Shield 2013 thread has become obsessed with this 3rd tier discussion, maybe someone should start a new thread.

Over the years we've seen teams dropped in both Colts and Grade to try to match the cost of running teams with the income of the clubs and I assume this will continue.

I'm not convinced that drawing parallels with the NRL is valid as it is a national competition and the reduction in the number of teams has been as much about travel costs as having to pay all the players.

The SS should be managed by the SRU and NSWRU and the ARU should butt out. They've done nothing to assist the SS in recent years and really should just worry about the Wallabies. If the ARU believes another tier is required to feed the Wallabies then it has to work WITH the clubs not dictate what they should or should not do or create other mickey mouse competitions that nobody is interested in.