Shute Shield 2013

[WorkingClassRugger]

If a new competetive level of rugby were to be introduced then new provincial identities would be essential in my humble opinion. The ARC was close to achieving this but went too far too quickly and made some mistakes that could be rectified easily. A possible solution to the odd Shute Shied competition format would be for districts like Easts and Randwick to amalgamate (due to their parlous financial situations) but peace in the middle east would be easier to achieve. If they couldn't come together at this level what makes people think that it can be achieved at 3rd tier level. Autonomy of selection and recruitment would need to be handed to officials without a strong club allegiance who could then piece together the best combination of players to represent a newly formed provice. This, by the way should include Sydney Uni. This would hopefully also encourage players to play for a local club without fear of being overlooked at the next level and not having bottom half clubs pillaged every year for their up and coming talent.

ARC had teams (some, not all) representing geographical areas but played at stadiums outside the areas they supposedly represented. They also incurred major costs due to the logistics of flying teams interstate to Melbourne and Brisbane.
I have suggested in the past that the partaking teams should all be located within a two hour drive of the Sydney CBD. This could incorporate Canberra, The Illawarra, Central Coast, Newcastle and possibly out to Bathurst. There is 5 potential provinces already. Add 3-4 Sydney provinces (East, West, North, Central, South?) and a competition takes shape. Academy type sides from the Force and Rebels could also be included if based in Sydney or the 2hr limit. A similar concept could take place based in Brisbane.

Yes, there would be the costs of bus hire (cheaper than air fairs) if players didn't travel independently but the ARU has to contribute something towards the development of the game. Doesn't it?

The whole premise of an extra tier is to provide opportunities for players and coaches to prove themselves before stepping up to the S15 ranks. With this in mind it would be foolish to think that this format would be a self supporting professional environment. Payment would have to be limited to essential staff and reimbursing out of pocket expenses to players with perhaps some prizemoney allocated to the top four teams if a sponsor could be found.

No, it's not the Currie Cup or ITM Champs but we face different circumstances to our SANZAR cousins. The reality is that rugby in general has dipped considerably in both participation and fan base. The ARU has an obligation to oversee and streamline all areas of the game if it's to survive into the next decades. The current dependance on the school system and academies to develop hardened profesionals capable of competing on the international stage has failed and reinvigorating the club scene by developing a recognised pathway to representative rugby through the clubs would be a start.

That's actually an interesting concept. And the the must be asked, would a NSW Cup like post club season championship at the very least in the interim be the solution. At the end of each season 6 representative teams play on a home and away schedule. The six are pretty simple with Sydney, Western Sydney and let's call it North Harbour. Then you can add in the likes of the Hunter and Illawarra. Both are two of the stronger country regions plus are close enough to Sydney. Hunter could act as the Force's base while the Illawarra the Rebels. Add in a team from Canberra.

Players from the Reds can possibly come down to compete or the QRU could look to do something similar.

 

[GunnerDownUnder]

What about starting the SS season a bit earlier and playing every team once home and once away, top 6 in finals.
During the season there is a cup comp, 8 groups of 5 play 2 teams at home and two away.
40 teams involved could be Top 10 QLD, 12 SS, Top 10 ACT, 8 qualifiers from Darwin, Victoria, Tassie, WA and NSW non- SS.
Top 2 from each group then enter knock-out stages.

Not that much travel involved and we would see how fans would travel...

 

[Dave Beat]

See below;

What about starting the SS season a bit earlier and playing every team once home and once away, top 6 in finals. That is too simple, and sensible.
During the season there is a cup comp, 8 groups of 5 play 2 teams at home and two away. If the above did happen, how could this occur during the season?
40 teams involved could be Top 10 QLD, 12 SS, Top 10 ACT, 8 qualifiers from Darwin, Victoria, Tassie, WA and NSW non- SS.
Top 2 from each group then enter knock-out stages. Ditto

Not that much travel involved and we would see how fans would travel.

 

[Sniper]

I don't think Warringah will do that well this year. Sure, Harvey has come over, but I hear alot of players are not happy that he is getting paid such a large amount and they are getting nothing. Also, same players don't have much condidence in Harris as a coach. Alot were surprised he got the gig last year again, and now he has it again. Solid player, but a coach? They would rather have him start in lower grades and get more experience. Young guys love him, as they play 1st grade, but these same players don't seem to know what to do on a field. But Harris has been earmarked for higher honours with Cam Blades and Wade Kelly by new NSW top coach. Very interesting.

 

[GunnerDownUnder]

See below;

Super 15 starts 15th Feb, so should SS. Remove the bye week of 8/6/13 and split weeks in Sept.
That gives 22 week for SS and a spare 5 weeks for the cup.
Group rounds and last 16 games in that 5, leaving 3 games at most to fit in for the quarter finalists. Which I think most clubs could work out fairly easily.

 

[Dave Beat]

Super 15 starts 15th Feb, so should SS. Remove the bye week of 8/6/13 and split weeks in Sept.
That gives 22 week for SS and a spare 5 weeks for the cup.
Group rounds and last 16 games in that 5, leaving 3 games at most to fit in for the quarter finalists. Which I think most clubs could work out fairly easily.

Gunner - preaching to the converted in regards to moving it forward. The only think that may screw with is the 7's comps that have alot of history - not sure???
I think you called it a cup comp, are you suggesting that starts after the Shute Sheild (at the moment the GF is 14th Sept). For NZ's ITM cup starts 17th Aug and runs for 9 weeks. Reference to funding has already been made applying your concept I think rep teams Nth Hbr / Sth Hbr / Western Syd/ ACT / ?

 

[GunnerDownUnder]

Gunner - preaching to the converted in regards to moving it forward. The only think that may screw with is the 7's comps that have alot of history - not sure???
I think you called it a cup comp, are you suggesting that starts after the Shute Sheild (at the moment the GF is 14th Sept). For NZ's ITM cup starts 17th Aug and runs for 9 weeks. Reference to funding has already been made applying your concept I think rep teams Nth Hbr / Sth Hbr / Western Syd/ ACT / ?

Well moving forward 7's players and comps are very separate and specialist, and if a third tier is the aim then players would need to decide if 7's was what they wanted.
I was thinking more like the HC in Europe, two double weekends during season for the group games and so on.
SS rugby is great because there is no mergers or relegation so clubs have an identity and there is no fear of going down and young players are given a chance to prove themselves.
The other option could be a smaller comp after the SS season, with each league/state/territory putting forward a team and NSW for example putting the Cockatoos and Subbies in. If QLD could also put two teams in that would make 10 sides and 2 groups of 5. Or just an East coast comp with say four groups of four - one each from NSW, QLD, ACT and NSW/QLD non Top or SS. Top two to knock-out gives a nine week comp. There really needs to be a comp for fringe Tahs and the top SS players/teams to play during the whole of the s15 season.
I dont like mergers for a rep side, which may seem odd seeing as I support Edinburgh but I only have to do this as my rep side Caledonia Reds was shut down and we merged with the soap dodgers from weegieland. Which is like Manly merging with Penrith and being called Penrith and playing out of Penrith!

 

[no9]

Super 15 starts 15th Feb, so should SS. Remove the bye week of 8/6/13 and split weeks in Sept.
That gives 22 week for SS and a spare 5 weeks for the cup.
Group rounds and last 16 games in that 5, leaving 3 games at most to fit in for the quarter finalists. Which I think most clubs could work out fairly easily.

Asking players to play for petrol money for half the year without a genuine sniff at the next level is asking a lot.

Couldn't we learn from NZ and run a club comp (no wait, a whole structure that feeds right through to the Wallabies. Note to self - ring Pulver) that fulfils the need for a place where 20 to 25 yr olds can show they are ready for professional football instead of the current system of guessing who'll make it based on the views of a few school teachers and a couple of annointed impressarios.

Why not a SS that has one full round with a top 6 finals (Shield) and bottom 6 finals (Plate). As teams are eliminated from finals they can play trials so players can maintain match hardness if selected into a provincial competition based on a previous post.

Unselected players (of which there would be few as provinces would need to run 25 - 30 player squads) return to clubs with lower grades for a round robin Cup format that could be used to support the provincial games and build crowds and a local following.

Something along the lines of Sydney East vs Sydney West played at Parramatta Stadium (ok, Concord) or Allianz Stadium (Ok, Coogee) with a support round of Cup games between Parramatta, Penrith or Wests and Randwick, Easts or Uni.

Or Sydney Coast vs Illawarra/South supported by Manly/Rats vs Southern Districts cup games.

Obviously there would have to be rules in place to stop clubs like Uni dominating recruitment in the province it is allocated to. Perhaps a maximum of 11 players from 1 club per province and 8 players from other clubs.

So if Manly and Warringah formed a Coastal province 22 of the current 1st grade squads could be taken up and 8 players are then available to other provinces.

We may even see some coaches having to prove themselves by having to identify the right balances from the allocated clubs and in who they recruit from outside clubs.

The big point to remember is that this competition is highly unlikely to be self supporting financially so the Clubs, players, supporters and officials have to see it for what it is, the missing piece in the puzzle of why we can't consistently compete at the highest levels any more.

Hopefully the new management will recognise that the proving grounds for senior professional rugby are not located at the GPS/ISA/CAS colleges or Moore Park Academy and support a structure that will return on the investment without the guesswork.

 

[SackRobbie]

Good oil: Penrith's lease on their home ground is up and council are forcing them to share with League. This will affect training mainly in year 1 but will make a big difference next year.

 

[No.8]

Something needs to be done with Australian rugby for it to survive at the top level - we need a much better and more structure development system and we NEED a National comp so plays 1. want to stay in the country and not go overseas and 2. Strengthen our development of players before moving into Super Rugby/International...

If we dont do this then honestly I can see Aus slipping down below the bottom 5 teams in the world within the next 5-10 years...

We prob have the worst development of the top nations in the world and there is nothing being done about it - then people wonder why the Wallabies are struggling....

At the end of the day - money talks - ARU need to invest money, find investers and start to get things started - look at the European teams - even the 2nd string comps i.e Pro D2 in France, Championship in England etc - have a huge following and huge support and great for development...just about investing some money...

Its come to the point where Aus cant relay on natural talent anymore...

 

[en_force_er]

If we dont do this then honestly I can see Aus slipping down below the bottom 5 teams in the world within the next 5-10 years.

Yes, how will we compete against the might of Finland, the UAE, Greece, Mauritius, and America Samoa unless we instigate widespread change.

 

[It is what it is]

Something needs to be done with Australian rugby for it to survive at the top level - we need a much better and more structure development system and we NEED a National comp so plays 1. want to stay in the country and not go overseas and 2. Strengthen our development of players before moving into Super Rugby/International.

If we dont do this then honestly I can see Aus slipping down below the bottom 5 teams in the world within the next 5-10 years.

We prob have the worst development of the top nations in the world and there is nothing being done about it - then people wonder why the Wallabies are struggling..

At the end of the day - money talks - ARU need to invest money, find investers and start to get things started - look at the European teams - even the 2nd string comps i.e Pro D2 in France, Championship in England etc - have a huge following and huge support and great for development.just about investing some money.

Its come to the point where Aus cant relay on natural talent anymore.

Don't get too frustrated comparing us to overseas No.8.
Many Pro D2 teams in France are located in towns where there isn't a lot of competition from other winter sports (football/handball).
The actual towns ie the local council often own or part own the team.
The Pro D2 teams also have a financial goal. If they make it through promotion into the Top 14, the TV monies allocated and other spoils like merchandising, sponsorships and gate takings are substantial.
Squads are fully professional and the players have Europe as their local pathway.
With our relatively small population, large land mass and very strong competition from RL & AFL for fans, media space and TV scheduling, we have a difficult challenge.
Keep the faith, there are plans afoot to develop a genuine 3rd tier and development pathway for players.

 

[Andrew B Cox]

I guess most of us agree that domestic rugby needs to be strengthened. A domestic comp that does not vampire the current clubs in Sydney, Brisbane and the ACT is pretty necessary.

The question therefore is should we do this by promoting club sides into a national 'Cup' comp through qualifying via their Shute Shield /Hospital Cup/ John Dent Cup comp that allows qualifying teams to recruit short term from non-qualifiers, or do we build a rep competition(ARC-like)?

I believe the former has some merit, as you can start small and allow it to evolve. Plus you avoid the pain of successful clubs losing their identities. That way, you maintain a sponsor and volunteer base.

Thoughts?

 

[No.8]

en_force_er - lol...I dont think that will ever be the case - but we could get in a position where we cant beat teams such as NZ, England, France, SA, Wales etc...

Over the last 2-3 years you have seen the decline in the Wallabies team - winning by more luck or opposition not playing well more than totally out-playing a team - even in the end of year tour they were lucky to win any of the games...England, Italy and Wales played better than Aus.

For me I am not sure yet if a mixed comp of QLD/ACT/NSW (mainly) etc teams in a comp after the SS, QLD, ACT comps would work better or if a comp made up of maybe 2 x NSW, 2 X QLD, 1 x ACT, 1 X Vic etc would work better...there are pros and cons of both - I would prefer it to be a mainly club comp...

 

[en_force_er]

en_force_er - lol.I dont think that will ever be the case - but we could get in a position where we cant beat teams such as NZ, England, France, SA, Wales etc.

Over the last 2-3 years you have seen the decline in the Wallabies team - winning by more luck or opposition not playing well more than totally out-playing a team - even in the end of year tour they were lucky to win any of the games.England, Italy and Wales played better than Aus.

For me I am not sure yet if a mixed comp of QLD/ACT/NSW (mainly) etc teams in a comp after the SS, QLD, ACT comps would work better or if a comp made up of maybe 2 x NSW, 2 X QLD, 1 x ACT, 1 X Vic etc would work better.there are pros and cons of both - I would prefer it to be a mainly club comp.

I was having a chuckle at your expense mate, I knew exactly what you meant and you're right.

Australia has a pretty solid top end structure (as in our international team and Super Rugby sides are well run) and so I can't see up ever dropping out of the top 8 or so nations in the world but I see you're point, we aren't great at having clear runs of progression for our athletes.

It's a real issue and money's always a limiting factor. We can talk all day but at the end of it I'm very happy that nobody is tasking me with creating a 3rd tier because you're just never going to make everyone happy.

 

[GunnerDownUnder]

I guess most of us agree that domestic rugby needs to be strengthened. A domestic comp that does not vampire the current clubs in Sydney, Brisbane and the ACT is pretty necessary.

The question therefore is should we do this by promoting club sides into a national 'Cup' comp through qualifying via their Shute Shield /Hospital Cup/ John Dent Cup comp that allows qualifying teams to recruit short term from non-qualifiers, or do we build a rep competition(ARC-like)?

I believe the former has some merit, as you can start small and allow it to evolve. Plus you avoid the pain of successful clubs losing their identities. That way, you maintain a sponsor and volunteer base.

Thoughts?

There is already a rep team for each state its super15, club comp gets my vote.
Just play it during a slightly expanded season, top 4 from the above leagues in 4 groups of 3 with top team going into a semi final. You can even have the next 4 teams in another comp like Europe.

 

[No.8]

I was having a chuckle at your expense mate, I knew exactly what you meant and you're right.

Australia has a pretty solid top end structure (as in our international team and Super Rugby sides are well run) and so I can't see up ever dropping out of the top 8 or so nations in the world but I see you're point, we aren't great at having clear runs of progression for our athletes.

It's a real issue and money's always a limiting factor. We can talk all day but at the end of it I'm very happy that nobody is tasking me with creating a 3rd tier because you're just never going to make everyone happy.

Very true mate...

There is already a rep team for each state its super15, club comp gets my vote.
Just play it during a slightly expanded season, top 4 from the above leagues in 4 groups of 3 with top team going into a semi final. You can even have the next 4 teams in another comp like Europe.

I think a club comp would work much better - and you would already have the following of supports from the comps...to be honest having ACT v NSW etc is just boring...club rugby is much more exciting to watch...

Of course change it up abit - different jerseys for the national comp (same colours etc just different to the normal club comps), merchandise, more marketing behind the clubs, advertising for games, games on tv - maybe the new ONE channel etc etc - I would love to see something like that...

ARU could contract some big names from overseas to play for a season or a number of games- of course it would be a huge out-lay of money but thats what brings in crowds....

Something like that could be really exciting and create a real buzz...

Think about how much more teams would put in development, training, playing in the state comps if they knew they could go onto playing a national comp, on tv, the oppurunity to have a expanded fan base, sell merchandise etc etc...

 

[No.8]

Also from that - only have it as a short comp weekend and mid week games - like they did with the NPC

 

[Pete King]

Tahboy = 2012, 2011 Randwick GM = Disgraceful commentary on this site and happy to see him banned.

 

[Tah and feathered]

Tahboy = 2012, 2011 Randwick GM = Disgraceful commentary on this site and happy to see him banned.

Pete King its easy to have a go at someone when they cannot defend themselves. Should change your name to king hit
Everyone is entitled to there opinion and I didn't agree with something's Tahboy said but calling someone a disgrace is a bit over the top