Shute Shield 2013

[the coach]

Coach you been around to long and must have read a number of posts.
If all teams had the same personel as Uni it would be the holy grail, undoubted - 12 teams full of super players fantastic for family fan base that wants to enjoy a day of rugby. How good would it be for NSWRU, and ARU.

We all know that it is not the case - rather large difference between # 1 & # 12, hence a 3rd tier may consist of of georgraphic 6 team rep comp (Nth Hbr / Sth Hbr / West / NSW Count / ACT / Other (maybe Sth Dist / Kiama / Illawarra etc), at Shute Shield season end.
It would keep the super players / fringe WOBs fit for possible call ups

I know, I was just pipe dreaming

 

[Knuckles]

Knuckles, I assume the benchmark club you're referring to is Sydney Uni.
If so, let me ask you this:
If all Shute Shield teams were at the same level as Uni would the Shute Shield then provide the holy grail 3rd tier competition (in Sydney at least) that everyone dreams of?

It would be very close to it. No question. But the ARU clearly want the best from Brisbane playing the best from Sydney and Canberra.

My personal belief is to leave the comps as they are (for the most part) but strengthen the weakest links......Penrith, Parra, Gordon etc. Then have a rep season at the end of the comps between regions or zones of Sydney/Brisb/Canberra. People are dreaming if they think it's affordable to include any other interstate locations in the first few years. Build it slowly I say.


I still take issue with the pre-emptive nature of the recommendations in the report, and this insistent comparison with ITM and Currie Cups. If you look at today's SMH about Bill Pulver's appointment as ARU CEO, the editor of Rugby Heaven (I think - in the absence of poor old Greg Growden) repeats this nonsense. NZ and South Africa are smaller geographically, governed differently and, most importantly, nations where Rugby has a fairly consistent foothold across the whole territory. The notion that we could establish a high quality Perth or Adelaide team - which underlay the ARC concept - is like trying to establish a polar bear ice-skating competition in the Sahara. It's not just that the bears won't thrive and the ice will melt, but also that Arab spectators will only want to watch camel races. It's amazing that people could blithely trot out the same old "solution" (the Rugby Heaven guy - Samuelson? - thought the only issue with the ARC failure was cost). People are seduced by the global nature of Rugby - ice is global too, but there's a bloody hot bit in North Africa halfway between Greenland and Antarctica!

 

[the coach]

It would be very close to it. No question. But the ARU clearly want the best from Brisbane playing the best from Sydney and Canberra.

My personal belief is to leave the comps as they are (for the most part) but strengthen the weakest links..Penrith, Parra, Gordon etc. Then have a rep season at the end of the comps between regions or zones of Sydney/Brisb/Canberra. People are dreaming if they think it's affordable to include any other interstate locations in the first few years. Build it slowly I say.


I still take issue with the pre-emptive nature of the recommendations in the report, and this insistent comparison with ITM and Currie Cups. If you look at today's SMH about Bill Pulver's appointment as ARU CEO, the editor of Rugby Heaven (I think - in the absence of poor old Greg Growden) repeats this nonsense. NZ and South Africa are smaller geographically, governed differently and, most importantly, nations where Rugby has a fairly consistent foothold across the whole territory. The notion that we could establish a high quality Perth or Adelaide team - which underlay the ARC concept - is like trying to establish a polar bear ice-skating competition in the Sahara. It's not just that the bears won't thrive and the ice will melt, but also that Arab spectators will only want to watch camel races. It's amazing that people could blithely trot out the same old "solution" (the Rugby Heaven guy - Samuelson? - thought the only issue with the ARC failure was cost). People are seduced by the global nature of Rugby - ice is global too, but there's a bloody hot bit in North Africa halfway between Greenland and Antarctica!

Ever thought of a career in journalism?
Very entertaining, but also very true.....and let's not forget the impact of global warming on the polar bears!

I submitted a post earlier in the year (after spending 6 months last year working in NZ) in which I presented a similar argument ie that it was complete folly to compare NZ rugby to Australia. Rugby in NZ is by far the most popular sport all year round whereas in Australia it's at best #3 after NRL and AFL, with soccer closing fast. In fact, to call rugby a sport in NZ is probably short changing it.....it's a way of life and dominates people's everyday lives. We're kidding ourselves if we think rugby is so good that people in the other states will automatically embrace it just because a few games are played there or a local team is established.

I like the suggestion in your second paragraph, but as the man said "show me the money".

 

[Blackers13]

Ever thought of a career in journalism?
Very entertaining, but also very true...and let's not forget the impact of global warming on the polar bears!

I submitted a post earlier in the year (after spending 6 months last year working in NZ) in which I presented a similar argument ie that it was complete folly to compare NZ rugby to Australia. Rugby in NZ is by far the most popular sport all year round whereas in Australia it's at best #3 after NRL and AFL, with soccer closing fast. In fact, to call rugby a sport in NZ is probably short changing it...it's a way of life and dominates people's everyday lives. We're kidding ourselves if we think rugby is so good that people in the other states will automatically embrace it just because a few games are played there or a local team is established.

I like the suggestion in your second paragraph, but as the man said "show me the money".

It would be very close to it. No question. But the ARU clearly want the best from Brisbane playing the best from Sydney and Canberra.

My personal belief is to leave the comps as they are (for the most part) but strengthen the weakest links..Penrith, Parra, Gordon etc. Then have a rep season at the end of the comps between regions or zones of Sydney/Brisb/Canberra. People are dreaming if they think it's affordable to include any other interstate locations in the first few years. Build it slowly I say.

Totally agree. The biggest inhibitor to the maintenance and growth of the majority of clubs is lack of funding. You simply cannot recruit and retain the best coaching and administration talent, let alone players, or develop and maintain acceptable facilities without significant cash, a minimum of $500k per year. That sort of money can't come from sponsors and fundraising alone. The clubs you refer to plus Easts and Randwick who've had financial issues recently, need support, otherwise the rot will continue.

 

[Dave Beat]

Coach & Knuckles - Knuckles you said not affordable I was thinking adapting our shared rep idea only too NSW / ACT after the Shute Shield. It would keep the Fringe WOBS match harderened, and be a step up, 5 teams would be simple - the 6th???

• Souther Districts is strong maybe it's them / Illawarra / Kiama / Wgong - big area though and training logistics?
• The second round of the Shute Shield last year frowned upon, but a bit like a 3rd T?

 

[the coach]

Totally agree. The biggest inhibitor to the maintenance and growth of the majority of clubs is lack of funding. You simply cannot recruit and retain the best coaching and administration talent, let alone players, or develop and maintain acceptable facilities without significant cash, a minimum of $500k per year. That sort of money can't come from sponsors and fundraising alone. The clubs you refer to plus Easts and Randwick who've had financial issues recently, need support, otherwise the rot will continue.

Ryan, my understanding is that Randwick's annual budget is closer to $1m and the financial problems are mainly with the licenced club.
We've been told that the football club has in fact lent money to the licenced club.
Having said that, Wade Kelly claims that no players will be paid at Randwick this year!

 

[the coach]

Coach & Knuckles - Knuckles you said not affordable I was thinking adapting our shared rep idea only too NSW / ACT after the Shute Shield. It would keep the Fringe WOBS match harderened, and be a step up, 5 teams would be simple - the 6th???

• Souther Districts is strong maybe it's them / Illawarra / Kiama / Wgong - big area though and training logistics?
• The second round of the Shute Shield last year frowned upon, but a bit like a 3rd T?

I still have a concern about whether there would be any interest in a competition that doesn't tap into the clubs' tribal support base.
If memory serves me correct there was an end-of-season comp between NSW, QLD and ACT some years ago and that was pretty much ignored by the paying public (correct me if I'm wrong).
Having said that, if we don't try these things we'll never move forward so let's give it a go.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Coach & Knuckles - Knuckles you said not affordable I was thinking adapting our shared rep idea only too NSW / ACT after the Shute Shield. It would keep the Fringe WOBS match harderened, and be a step up, 5 teams would be simple - the 6th???

• Souther Districts is strong maybe it's them / Illawarra / Kiama / Wgong - big area though and training logistics?
• The second round of the Shute Shield last year frowned upon, but a bit like a 3rd T?

This concept sort of makes sense in that it doesn't require excessive financing to get up and running and keeps travel to a relative minimum. As for a sixth team, in terms of competition I'd say a Hunter team would be the preferred setup. However, a combined Southern/Illawarra set up could work. Engadine already competes in the Illawarra grade competition and I have long though that it should be seriously looked at merging both districts into one 'super district'. I currently reside roughly at the half way point between most of the local Illawarra clubs and I can get from my house to Heathcote in 30-35 mins most days so travel wouldn't be a major issue. Besides, having played in the Illawarra competition you tend to accept travel a bit.

We need a level of Rugby that further condenses talent above Club but below Super Rugby while keeping issues such as expense to a minimum. If the Brisbane clubs were able to do like wise then perhaps something could be discussed about combining the two into one single round competition. The beauty of it would be that it would have to run during the Rugby Championship, many might see this as a negative, however, it would provide a Wallaby squad members with the opportunity to get some game time when not required while keeping the next level guys hungry.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I still have a concern about whether there would be any interest in a competition that doesn't tap into the clubs' tribal support base.
If memory serves me correct there was an end-of-season comp between NSW, QLD and ACT some years ago and that was pretty much ignored by the paying public (correct me if I'm wrong).
Having said that, if we don't try these things we'll never move forward so let's give it a go.

Yeah, it would be an issue. What it would need is club backing. Not necessarily in terms of financing but in support. Clubs encouraging fans and members to back such a concept which will as history illustrates be very, very difficult to achieve. I know from experience many clubs wish to go it alone if such a competition were to eventuate, unfortunately many need to seriously look at themselves and realise that without something similar to the above concept any chance of being part of such a competition is nigh on impossible.

 

[Dave Beat]

I have no idea of the costs to run a Shute Shield club - Manly kicked some goals last year

• That being said the cost to run a Junior Rugby Club would be significantly less - it is the parents pockets that generally fund these clubs, sponsors may providing contribution - more often than not the Sponsor is a dad anyway.
• If the ARU invested in something similar to Auskick I believe it will be an Investment that will grow with age, and cover all georgraphic area's providing a good balance Nth / Sth / East or West.
• This growth can also create supporter growth, let's say the 6 Shute Sheild games that are played every week have a 2 x junior curtain raisers (one in each half). More people through the gate, greater audiance, and no doubt the kids will want to go pack again with their mates and kick the ball around at 1/2 time.
• Take this one step further, have some Tahs at SS games kicking the ball around with the kids at half time and maybe giving away a some family passes.
• It is also these players that will become tribal with their rep team as they grow older

Cheers,

 

[Rob]

That is bizarre!!

There is an iteresting editorial in the SMH today about the new CEO of the ARU which touches on Shute SHield and basically says that the ARU need to forget about a third tier (been there, done that, and failed) and focus on the life blood feeding the SS teams and the Wallabies i.e. the Sydney, Brisbane and Canberra competitions.

Worth a read and for what its worth, I totally agree.

I have seen and studied the ARU Premier Rugby Review Belly is referring to. They quite clearly state in it that they feel premier rugby should be 1 grade and 1 colts sides.

They clearly want a 3rd tier comp, but arent prepared to determine which clubs are in or out of it. They state that quite a few clubs financial position is so critical at the moment, that at any given time up to 6 clubs could fall over immediately....yet they are not prepared to help.

They also stupidly compared match stats in Premier Rugby to that of Super Rugby. Where the Super Rugby match stats were higher than Premier Rugby they sang the praises of successful coaching programs at Super level. An example of this was in Super Rugby, the success rate for penalty conversions is higher than Premier. So they were very complimentary in the coaching of goal kickers at Super Rugby level. Then when the Premier comps were higher than Super Rugby, they criticised the professionalism of the opposing sides in Premier Rugby. Example being, there is more line-breaks and more tries scored in Premier Rugby than there is in Super Rugby (well duh!). Rather than say this came about because of the attacking focus of the Premier Rugby sides, they said it was because defensive sides in Premier Rugby aren't as well executed as they are in Super Rugby.

They talk about the possibility of introducing a salary cap in Shute Shield. Yet have no idea how to implement it, what it should be or how to police it. They spoke about how one club has an advantage over all others by being in a position to offer tertiary degrees to players joining that particular club and valued those at $500,000 per annum. Yet they say they would be reluctant to limit that as it's denying young people educational opportunities.

They compared the coaching programs, strength and conditioning programs, medical programs and gym facilities of all clubs. The outcome was that they will support those clubs with the resources they advocate rather than help other clubs achieve that level.

For me personally, they have got it all around backwards. It's clear, in Shute Shield there is a benchmark club. And good on them for achieving that. But rather than look to discover ways on how the governing body, the keeper of the game in this country, can help clubs below the benchmark achieve similar standards, thus raising the level of the competition, the level of the teams, the level of the individuals, ultimately benefitting the national interest, they are happy to just plod along, watch clubs die, and support the benchmark.

So I ask you all this.

What would happen if the NRL behaved like that?

 

[Dave Beat]

I still have a concern about whether there would be any interest in a competition that doesn't tap into the clubs' tribal support base.
If memory serves me correct there was an end-of-season comp between NSW, QLD and ACT some years ago and that was pretty much ignored by the paying public (correct me if I'm wrong).
Having said that, if we don't try these things we'll never move forward so let's give it a go.

With regards to Tribal so do I - for Nth Hbr I'd follow a Manly / Rats / Nths team.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

That is bizarre!!

There is an iteresting editorial in the SMH today about the new CEO of the ARU which touches on Shute SHield and basically says that the ARU need to forget about a third tier (been there, done that, and failed) and focus on the life blood feeding the SS teams and the Wallabies i.e. the Sydney, Brisbane and Canberra competitions.

Worth a read and for what its worth, I totally agree.

Haven't seen it. Got the url for it by any chance?

 

[Rob]

Haven't seen it. Got the url for it by any chance?

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/edito...ed-grit-and-steely-nerves-20130110-2citq.html

 

[the coach]

Sorry, I know this is off topic but it's too amazing not to share:
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-members-over-cap-clanger-20130111-2cjv7.html

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/edito...ed-grit-and-steely-nerves-20130110-2citq.html

Who's the author of the piece? As I believe he has his perspectives a little askew in what exactly the life blood of Australian Rugby truly is. They're right regarding the Wallabies, while they are the public face, they are not the the game's true life's blood. However, they are off the mark claiming grade Rugby is either. It's the smaller junior clubs drawing in future generations of players and fans.

To do this successfully we not only need to nurture grassroots rugby but install development pathways that ensures that the Wallabies and if ever any FTA coverage were to emerge Super Rugby franchises are stocked with as many world class athletes as we can muster.

 

[the coach]

Who's the author of the piece? As I believe he has his perspectives a little askew in what exactly the life blood of Australian Rugby truly is. They're right regarding the Wallabies, while they are the public face, they are not the the game's true life's blood. However, they are off the mark claiming grade Rugby is either. It's the smaller junior clubs drawing in future generations of players and fans.

To do this successfully we not only need to nurture grassroots rugby but install development pathways that ensures that the Wallabies and if ever any FTA coverage were to emerge Super Rugby franchises are stocked with as many world class athletes as we can muster.

I suggest the ARU sees the NRL and private schools as being at least as important as sources of players as the junior clubs, much to my frustration.

 

[Done that]

I have seen and studied the ARU Premier Rugby Review Belly is referring to. They quite clearly state in it that they feel premier rugby should be 1 grade and 1 colts sides.

They clearly want a 3rd tier comp, but arent prepared to determine which clubs are in or out of it. They state that quite a few clubs financial position is so critical at the moment, that at any given time up to 6 clubs could fall over immediately....yet they are not prepared to help.

They also stupidly compared match stats in Premier Rugby to that of Super Rugby. Where the Super Rugby match stats were higher than Premier Rugby they sang the praises of successful coaching programs at Super level. An example of this was in Super Rugby, the success rate for penalty conversions is higher than Premier. So they were very complimentary in the coaching of goal kickers at Super Rugby level. Then when the Premier comps were higher than Super Rugby, they criticised the professionalism of the opposing sides in Premier Rugby. Example being, there is more line-breaks and more tries scored in Premier Rugby than there is in Super Rugby (well duh!). Rather than say this came about because of the attacking focus of the Premier Rugby sides, they said it was because defensive sides in Premier Rugby aren't as well executed as they are in Super Rugby.

They talk about the possibility of introducing a salary cap in Shute Shield. Yet have no idea how to implement it, what it should be or how to police it. They spoke about how one club has an advantage over all others by being in a position to offer tertiary degrees to players joining that particular club and valued those at $500,000 per annum. Yet they say they would be reluctant to limit that as it's denying young people educational opportunities.

They compared the coaching programs, strength and conditioning programs, medical programs and gym facilities of all clubs. The outcome was that they will support those clubs with the resources they advocate rather than help other clubs achieve that level.

For me personally, they have got it all around backwards. It's clear, in Shute Shield there is a benchmark club. And good on them for achieving that. But rather than look to discover ways on how the governing body, the keeper of the game in this country, can help clubs below the benchmark achieve similar standards, thus raising the level of the competition, the level of the teams, the level of the individuals, ultimately benefitting the national interest, they are happy to just plod along, watch clubs die, and support the benchmark.

So I ask you all this.

What would happen if the NRL behaved like that?

You may be correct as to the current thoughts of the ARU.I don't have that information.
However the message conveyed to the club presidents via NSWRU was ,at the time , to have 1 colts & I think 3 grade (it could have been 2).
This was some years ago & may have been changed.
This was designed to be principally a cost cutting exercise for the ARU.
I believe that the current format has become too expensive & unwieldy for most clubs unfortunately , & by necessity the number of teams in each club will ultimately be reduced.
The concept of replacing the existing clubs by North , South ,East & West or similar ,I believe would be rejected by the clubs , who would likely opt to go it alone.

 

[hawktrain]

• This growth can also create supporter growth, let's say the 6 Shute Sheild games that are played every week have a 2 x junior curtain raisers (one in each half). More people through the gate, greater audiance, and no doubt the kids will want to go pack again with their mates and kick the ball around at 1/2 time.
• Take this one step further, have some Tahs at SS games kicking the ball around with the kids at half time and maybe giving away a some family passes.
• It is also these players that will become tribal with their rep team as they grow older

I agree with this completely. The last time I went to a SS club game (usually go down for the GF but due to the Newc/Hunter comp it's hard to get down for SS games) was at Manly, last year against Sydney Uni, and they had kids all over the place, wearing either their own club's jersey, a Manly jersey or a Waratahs jersey, on the outskirts of the field, on the field during breaks in play, and it was really good to see. There's no reason why other clubs can't do this (and I'm sure some already do), to introduce a new generation to the SS. And of course, with the kids come coaches, parents, officials of their clubs etc etc, so it's win-win.

 

[neutral1]

As this is a thread about the 2013 Shute Shield here are a couple of thoughts. Warringah looming as dark horses for 2013. Norths may struggle to repeat their efforts but will still go ok. Uni and South, Manly and probably Eastwood top four again.Gordon to battle again but always dangerous, Penrith to really struggle in so many ways. Wests will be about the same again - dangerous but not consistent. Randwick will improve but their issues will continue to surface throughout 2013 . Parra with little top end forward movement may be improved through the grades & colts but a little worse off in 1st grade. And then there's the beasties - not sure but can see a long season ahead (by their own high standards).