Shute Shield 2012

[Tahboy]

So Uni are happy to play in a premier competition with sub standard facilities.
Spend a day at St Paul's watching the colts and see how much fun that is and having to keep feeding the parking meter. Uni probably get a cut on the days takings!

 

[Keithy]

Tahboy I agree with the facilities, maybe Bruce can fix things. But the parking is $6 for the day on weekends which would be cheaper than the coogee parking lot.

 

[stonecutter]

Manly won it again in 1997 to answer your question. However I suspect you knew that answer.

How many times has Wests won the Shute Shield since 1983?

Your argument is looking very ordinary. By your own numbers this means that Manly have won the premiership once in 28 years which is not something to be bragging about and only one more time in that period than the club you are bagging. By that count Uni and Eastwood and Randwick supporters would have the right to ask the same questions of you. Keithy seems happy to support your cause while overlooking the statistical failings of your argument. Conspiracy theorists would argue that Wests demise would be of benefit to Uni demographically but that's for another day.

By my count, Manly have actually been major under achievers when you consider their playing roster (S 15's) and where they have finished on the ladder over the past few seasons. I know they have finished well up the ladder but can't remember them contesting a grand final in the past few seasons. Perhaps an inquiry into Manlys' management should be called for in light of this poor performance.

All clubs should be taking note of Gordons current situation. It hasn't taken very long to fall as far as they have. Premiership winning teams in the 80/90's to then having lost an asset like their old clubhouse and getting caught up in this quasi proffessional payment of fourth tier players which is the Shute shield, is what I call poor management.

 

[Slash]

Your argument is looking very ordinary. By your own numbers this means that Manly have won the premiership once in 28 years which is not something to be bragging about and only one more time in that period than the club you are bagging. By that count Uni and Eastwood and Randwick supporters would have the right to ask the same questions of you. Keithy seems happy to support your cause while overlooking the statistical failings of your argument. Conspiracy theorists would argue that Wests demise would be of benefit to Uni demographically but that's for another day.

By my count, Manly have actually been major under achievers when you consider their playing roster (S 15's) and where they have finished on the ladder over the past few seasons. I know they have finished well up the ladder but can't remember them contesting a grand final in the past few seasons. Perhaps an inquiry into Manlys' management should be called for in light of this poor performance.

All clubs should be taking note of Gordons current situation. It hasn't taken very long to fall as far as they have. Premiership winning teams in the 80/90's to then having lost an asset like their old clubhouse and getting caught up in this quasi proffessional payment of fourth tier players which is the Shute shield, is what I call poor management.

Maths isn't your strong point is it? Maybe you were one of the bean counters at the Gordon Rugby and Social Club which is now in administration.........1997 to 2011 did not equal 28 years when I went to school.

Now this may come as a surprise to you, but I do agree that Manly have under achieved also in recent times. However, in each of the last 4 seasons, all 7 sides have made the semi finals and the clubs's finances are going through the roof. They have secured a major sponsor who kicks in a tremendous amount of money in tough times. membership of the 200 club is at capacity and we will continue to be strong. Be that as it may, you are correct, in 1st grade they have under achieved and no argument can be put against it.

You are also correct in that clubs should take note in Gordon's plight. And I would also add the plight of Parramatta to that comment too. However, I cannot help but draw the conclusion that Gordon in particular, are the victims of their own irresponsible behaviour. Every other club in the comp knows that they have been making promises to players for years that they cannot, and in some cases, still have not honoured. The clubs know this, because the players are telling them during negotiations. Whether or not is it accurate is irrelevant. It is the perception of the players, and unfortunately, at this level, perception is reality.

Finally stonecutter, or any other Gordon supporter on this site, are you able to confirm that the current Gordon board is about to get rolled at the upcoming AGM?

 

[Knuckles]

heard some blokes chatting down at Manly Fisho's this afternoon that Tim Lane will be called up to coach Wallabies backs in 2012.......anyone else know of any such plans?

 

[stonecutter]

Maths isn't your strong point is it? Maybe you were one of the bean counters at the Gordon Rugby and Social Club which is now in administration.........1997 to 2011 did not equal 28 years when I went to school.

Now this may come as a surprise to you, but I do agree that Manly have under achieved also in recent times. However, in each of the last 4 seasons, all 7 sides have made the semi finals and the clubs's finances are going through the roof. They have secured a major sponsor who kicks in a tremendous amount of money in tough times. membership of the 200 club is at capacity and we will continue to be strong. Be that as it may, you are correct, in 1st grade they have under achieved and no argument can be put against it.
You are also correct in that clubs should take note in Gordon's plight. And I would also add the plight of Parramatta to that comment too. However, I cannot help but draw the conclusion that Gordon in particular, are the victims of their own irresponsible behaviour. Every other club in the comp knows that they have been making promises to players for years that they cannot, and in some cases, still have not honoured. The clubs know this, because the players are telling them during negotiations. Whether or not is it accurate is irrelevant. It is the perception of the players, and unfortunately, at this level, perception is reality.

Finally stonecutter, or any other Gordon supporter on this site, are you able to confirm that the current Gordon board is about to get rolled at the upcoming AGM?

Not really suprised. I hope that all of us can be humble enough to see clear reasoning when presented with facts or statistics that debase our argument. Now with regards to beans and facts, 1984 to 2012 equated to 28 years when I went to school or did Manly win numerous premierships between '84 and '97 that would enable us to dismiss these years (we know the answer to that). This then further equates to one win (97) between '84 and 2011. If you like we can go back beyond '83 and include that win to say you had 2 titles but I'm unsure when Manly's previous last triumph was prior to that. I do have memories of '83 being celebrated as if it had been a while between wins (perhaps back to the Miller and Hemmings days) so lets say early 60's. This would then place Manly's achievements at 2 premierships over a possible 50 year period (happy to be found wrong if they won later than the 60's) which is better than some others, agreed, but clearly not a position to be throwing insults at others.

In each of the last 4 seasons Wests (like Manly) have also had most of their teams (5 this year) make the semi finals, particularly due to strength of the colts and lower grades, and the 4th grade team made the grand final this year. But like Manly they have also under achieved in the top grade. Also like Manly they are financially secure in these difficult times. They have the best quality suburban ground as a home base and they field 7 teams each weekend.

There are many similarities between the 2 clubs but you feel the need to deride them for the same successes that your own club has achieved over the same timeframe, less the 1997 title. We all know how hard it is to compete, let alone win, a title when the current rules allow two clubs in particular to have playing rosters the equivalent of professional provincial standard playing against part time hopefulls and doing nothing when the best young players from developing clubs are enticed away to join them. I congratulate Wests for their hard work in providing a stern test of rugby accross each level each week against the other clubs (more than some others can do) and can't reconcile with your views of poor management, lack of develoment and the silliness of when anybody last won a competition.

On a seperate note it appears there is a possibility that a northern neighbour of yours has decided to travel a similar path as others with a different method by looking to stockpile playing talent by splashing around a financial net to catch some tried and as many potential young players as they can and tie them to that club for 2 years whether they mature or not. Apparently some young Gordon players (and future potential players) have been lured this way and this may present a more present danger to Manly's future success than how Wests go about their business or how many premierships have been achieved in the past decades.

With regards to Gordons plight, I stated my beliefs with regards to the levels of managerial performance but I do believe the problems will eventually be the downfall of other clubs in this spiraling race to succeed unless they can all come to an agreement that within Sydney club rugby there is not enough financial support to pay players beyond the clubs earning capacities and that this money is better spent providing training and playing opportunities in a stronger competition for players to showcase their ability and then attract offers from the professional provincial squads. Rules need to be put in place that are enforced and protect the weaker clubs from being preyed on by the stronger when they are developing players that can bring them success in more responsible way.

 

[Done that]

Nice post Stonecutter.

"Arguments do not erase prejudice any more then arguments erase scars , whether psychological or physical "

 

[young gun]

"... On a seperate note it appears there is a possibility that a northern neighbour of yours has decided to travel a similar path as others with a different method by looking to stockpile playing talent by splashing around a financial net to catch some tried and as many potential young players as they can and tie them to that club for 2 years whether they mature or not. Apparently some young Gordon players (and future potential players) have been lured this way and this may present a more present danger to Manly's future success than how Wests go about their business or how many premierships have been achieved in the past decades..."


Someone I trust and respect, was speaking to someone well connected within Norths over the past week, and apparently this is the case - the impact, probably, to be felt most in Colts. Gordon have had an excellant junior rep team over the past 7 or 8 years that is coming up to Colts age next year. Apparently the eyes have have picked out of that team, and some big name players within it, and these guys are going to play for Norths. I really find myself in two minds on this, firstly, as a Norths supporter - great, good players / good teams, but as a rugby lover, I'm a little less certain - these kids are the heart and soul of the future of Gordon, and Gordon have put the resources into developing them, yet wont get the benefits. Despite what some may think, it serves the game no purpose for Gordon to become second rate. Plenty of money is being splashed around - which I think is ridiculous for Colts level, but there you go - the age of professinalism.

 

[Tahboy]

Young gun I have heard Norths have been out recruiting hard for colts and grade players and have been signing up guys for 2 seasons
Where are they getting the money from?
They did something similar a few years ago when Coleman was the coach but chased the players for grade and once the money dried up everyone left
I think it is silly to pay colts players, sure help them with Uni costs or other tertiary costs but not give money to spend
I am sure Norths think this is right and they are raiding a few clubs and have secured some players from the club I support.
Be interesting to see how they go? Clubs that get players to a club through a deal to good to refuse does not equal success and be interesting to see if they come through with the dollars plus I am sure they are offering other rugby type assistance. I also hope they understand the points system or they could be another uni and have good players in lower grades

 

[Bowside]

heard some blokes chatting down at Manly Fisho's this afternoon that Tim Lane will be called up to coach Wallabies backs in 2012.......anyone else know of any such plans?

It was reported in the courier mail about a month or 2 ago, that he was going to get the call up.

 

[Tahboy]

So he will replace Blake?
Blake back to coach Manly?
I don't think the backs are the problem. I think the problem is picking the right backs.

 

[lily]

I was under the impression that he was a defence coach.

 

[Lindommer]

So he will replace Blake? Blake back to coach Manly?

Hasn't Blake gone to the Force as an Assistant Coach?

 

[Tahboy]

Thanks for this I wasn't too sure what role Blake had

 

[Bowside]

So he will replace Blake?
Blake back to coach Manly?
I don't think the backs are the problem. I think the problem is picking the right backs.

I would have thought they would keep blake for defence, Lane for backs, Nuci for forwards and Deans to watch over it all. They might have some other specialist forwards coach as well. Probably not the ideal team but what can you do....

 

[Malcsy]

Someone I trust and respect, was speaking to someone well connected within Norths over the past week, and apparently this is the case - the impact, probably, to be felt most in Colts. Gordon have had an excellant junior rep team over the past 7 or 8 years that is coming up to Colts age next year. Apparently the eyes have have picked out of that team, and some big name players within it, and these guys are going to play for Norths. I really find myself in two minds on this, firstly, as a Norths supporter - great, good players / good teams, but as a rugby lover, I'm a little less certain - these kids are the heart and soul of the future of Gordon, and Gordon have put the resources into developing them, yet wont get the benefits. Despite what some may think, it serves the game no purpose for Gordon to become second rate. Plenty of money is being splashed around - which I think is ridiculous for Colts level, but there you go - the age of professinalism.

Young Gun, the village clubs do far more to nurture the juniors than the senior clubs do. It just so happens that the majority of Gordon's junior reps have historically come from either Chatswood or Hunters Hill. Hunter's Hill is now a North's feeder club, no longer a Gordon one. This might explain some of the 'defections'. Presumably you are referring to the 2010 16s (no 17s team in 2011).

 

[Stands]

Young Gun, the village clubs do far more to nurture the juniors than the senior clubs do. It just so happens that the majority of Gordon's junior reps have historically come from either Chatswood or Hunters Hill. Hunter's Hill is now a North's feeder club, no longer a Gordon one. This might explain some of the 'defections'. Presumably you are referring to the 2010 16s (no 17s team in 2011).

I thought the majority of their junior reps came from St Ives, Wahroonga, Lindfield etc.?

 

[AussieDominance]

I thought the majority of their junior reps came from St Ives, Wahroonga, Lindfield etc.?

That is true Wahroonga and St Ives both have massive Junior Clubs with Wahroonga being the biggest Junior Club in the Southern Hempisphere at one stage. Lindfield is not small either.

Hunters Hill did used to contribute a few players though and will have a small impact on future strength of Gordon Junior Sides.

It is pretty insulting on behalf of Hunters Hill though as I believe the Gordon Senior Club provided the money to get them set up as a club and established.

 

[young gun]

Young Gun, the village clubs do far more to nurture the juniors than the senior clubs do. It just so happens that the majority of Gordon's junior reps have historically come from either Chatswood or Hunters Hill. Hunter's Hill is now a North's feeder club, no longer a Gordon one. This might explain some of the 'defections'. Presumably you are referring to the 2010 16s (no 17s team in 2011).

Agree re: the junior clubs providing the support. I'm referring to the 2010 u/17's, and prior - I've watched these kids play for years and always admired them. They are from Wahroonga, Lindfield, St Ives and Roseville - all core Gordon clubs. Like I say, I'm in two minds - great to have them on board but ????

 

[Old Hilly]

That is true Wahroonga and St Ives both have massive Junior Clubs with Wahroonga being the biggest Junior Club in the Southern Hempisphere at one stage. Lindfield is not small either.

Hunters Hill did used to contribute a few players though and will have a small impact on future strength of Gordon Junior Sides.

It is pretty insulting on behalf of Hunters Hill though as I believe the Gordon Senior Club provided the money to get them set up as a club and established.

AussieD - your information regarding the re-establishment of HH Juniors is somewhat incorrect. The Juniors reformed in 1997 - driven by the then Seniors Club President, and former 1st Grade Captain - with no financial input from Gordon Seniors - or Juniors. I am well acquainted with this gent - who now lives interstate - and am resonable confident of details.
As to their impact on Gordon Reps..with 8 Village Clubs to choose from, they shouldn't have much impact at all, all things being equal.
The concept of breeding players "in-house" for the Club's subbies teams is now just strating to bear fruit, with some of those initial juniors now gracing the senior ranks. A 12 year plan that might actually work, with a bit of luck !
Regards