Shute Shield 2012

[Bruce Ross]

At the moment, players are contracted to clubs and not their respective unions, so clubs tend to have the whip hand. ... if a club tells a player 'no', the player would probably have to comply or put his contract at risk (depending on the contract).

Because this statement is made in the context of a series of attacks on, and unfounded assertions presented as fact about, just one club, Sydney Uni, I will respond to it.

Not one Sydney Uni player is under contract to the Club. I repeat, not one.
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[It is what it is]

Because this statement is made in the context of a series of attacks on, and unfounded assertions presented as fact about, just one club, Sydney Uni, I will respond to it.

Not one Sydney Uni player is under contract to the Club. I repeat, not one.
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Bruce, perhaps Andrew is confusing 'contracted to' with registration.
I imagine players are registered with clubs such as Sydney Uni so they can play in the competition and be covered for insurances etc.
This also allows clubs some control over the granting of clearances for players to swap clubs or play overseas etc so they don't take off owing money or leave a trail of destruction in their wake.

 

[It is what it is]

At the moment, players are contracted to clubs and not their respective unions, so clubs tend to have the whip hand. When the Sydney concept was floated last year, clubs had to nominate 3 players for the squad, which was whittled down to 2 per club for the first game against Rebel Rising.

In that sense the team was borne out of some compromise. However, there was a genuine desire initially for this team to represent all clubs. It was my understanding that a similar approach was taken this year. The problem is, when you aim to be inclusive the jersey can sometimes its lustre.

As for NSW Country, Col Jeffs has been pretty diligent in tracking down city based country boys. Like Matt Briggs, he can't force them at gunpoint, and if a club tells a player 'no', the player would probably have to comply or put his contract at risk (depending on the contract).The carrot country has is the Lions game next year- if indeed it is an 'Australian Country' origin side that plays.

Last year at Wests, we lobbied pretty hard to get Liam Windon added to the Sydney squad with Jeremy Sua after the first game as well as pushed to get Henry Seavula into the Country side.

Given that Jeremy got picked in the Samoan World Cup side and Liam went on the Rebels end of season tour, the rep games worked pretty well for them.

They no longer play for Wests, which is a shame, but I just don't think you should hold players back for your own ends.

Thanks Andrew and although it's often a frustrating and sometimes thankless task, all clubs should be promoting representative opportunities for their players.
One thing is certain, some players will let you down, but you owe it to the next one to get behind them and give them a chance.
Seeing such support and loyalty returned by successful rep players putting back in for your club is what makes club rugby great.

 

[Andrew B Cox]

Because this statement is made in the context of a series of attacks on, and unfounded assertions presented as fact about, just one club, Sydney Uni, I will respond to it.

Sorry Bruce, but my comments were certainly not made in the context of a series of attacks on one club, but merely responding to a question based on my knowledge.

I agree that 'contract' is a wrong expression, as, as far as I know, these agreements are unenforceable. However, from my experience, every Shute Shield player has a principle agreement with their club. This includes registration, as well as an agreement to play for the club in return for certain things- this may just be superior coaching- which, of course Bruce you may boast - having Todd Louden at the helm. Importantly, the relationship between the club and the player is ongoing. The relationship between the player and the non-professional rep team is not; this is problematic for rep teams and gives the club the whip hand.

I think the issue is, that from the straw poll that is this forum, the Sydney V Country game has merit.

As both a former Country coach and Shute Shield coach, I believe it has merit- but only if it is universally embraced by all Shute Shield clubs.

My question to you without prejudice Bruce is this; where do you, and more importantly, where does your club stand on it?

 

[Cutter]

Bruce it would be helpful if you could explain why Uni was under represented in the Sydney Country game. This isn't an attack, but a request for an explanation which will allow us all to be more informed about the situation.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce it would be helpful if you could explain why Uni was under represented in the Sydney Country game. This isn't an attack, but a request for an explanation which will allow us all to be more informed about the situation.

Cutter, I have no authority to speak on behalf of the Club even though I am very actively involved with it. I understand that a letter of complaint has been sent by the Club to Brett Papworth which details the individual situations of a large number of Uni players. Among them were at least five players who took part in either City or Country training but were not selected. Also four first graders who were country eligible were not contacted by those in charge of assembling that team.

When someone chose to raise the totally irrelevant issue of Uni being opposed to the structure of the ARC competition I pointed out that my Club had in fact supplied more than 30 players to it, much more than any other club. That statement then became the target of ridicule.

I involved myself in this thread because someone made a totally inaccurate statement which was intended to give the impression that he had direct knowledge of Uni coaches directing players not to get involved. Others joined in to help put the slipper in.

When I write here I take considerable care to ensure that what I write is factual, and based on my record I expect what I say to be believed. I am not prepared to have myself subjected to cross examination in an environment where other people regularly make inaccurate and malicious statements which not only go unchallenged but are accepted as truth.
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[Cutter]

Thanks Bruce. That is a worthy response in the circumstances.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Tall poppies Bruce. Everyone is having a go at Uni 'cause they are the tallest poppy in town at the moment. Bit like the anti-Scholarship/Bursary (and anti St Augs) sentiment in the Schoolboy threads.

Do you recall all the Anti-Uni stuff going on in the '80's when Uni was struggling?
I wasn't around in Olde Sydney Towne back then. I suspect it was probably an Anti-'Wicks Tall poppy crusade back then (and as others take schadenfreude at the 'Wicks languishing currently in last place they say what has changed - LOL )

 

[wamberal]

Tall poppies Bruce. Everyone is having a go at Uni 'cause they are the tallest poppy in town at the moment. Bit like the anti-Scholarship/Bursary (and anti St Augs) sentiment in the Schoolboy threads.

Do you recall all the Anti-Uni stuff going on in the '80's when Uni was struggling?
I wasn't around in Olde Sydney Towne back then. I suspect it was probably an Anti-'Wicks Tall poppy crusade back then (and as others take schadenfreude at the 'Wicks languishing currently in last place they say what has changed - LOL )

Speaking personally, I am critical of Uni because unlike most other clubs they historically have put very little (nothing until recently) into developing and running junior competitions. In other words, historically they have done virtually nothing to produce new players for our game, they simply cream off the best of the available crop - some of which has been produced by the efforts of other clubs.

As for Randwick, they had an unhealthy influence over the game for some years, and that is why people were critical of them. It was an open secret that players were told that their rep chances would be enhanced if they played for the Wicks. Fortunately, those days appear to be long gone; although I regret that some of the good things about the Randwick approach to the game have been lost along the way.

 

[Tahboy]

Does anyone remember how many Uni players played in the city v country game in 2011?
I remember Sam Carter played country and at the time was mostly playing 2nd grade. I can't remember anyone else.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I'd have been disappointed if Tahboy hadn't bought into this, trying to give the pot another stir.

I've got enough to do trying to help my own club to be bothered trying to tear another one down.
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[Tahboy]

Pretty simple question Bruce, uni are writing a letter of complaint about comments papworth made about the lack of Uni players playing and you say there were fair reasons that players were unavailable so nobody should be saying anything yet Uni did the same thing in 2011 or did more than 1 Sydney uni player play in 2011?

 

[Cutter]

That also seems a legitimate question Bruce. Are you able to answer it?

 

[Bruce Ross]

That also seems a legitimate question Bruce. Are you able to answer it?

I might be able to, Cutter, but have no intention of doing so. It's not a coconut shy where anyone can have a go at me.

I don't keep records of teams, never have, not about to start. I took the trouble to go onto the NSW Country Rugby Union website this afternoon and saw the team selected on 6 June 2011 to play City. Of the 23 players just seven were listed as playing for Sydney Clubs. Sam Carter's name was not among them. One player was listed as playing for Tahboy's club. There are 12 Shute Shield Clubs. So by what criteria do you judge Tahboy's question as "legitimate"? He's a serial shit stirrer about Sydney Uni and doesn't deserve to be given oxygen.
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[Tahboy]

No need to get personnel Bruce, please excuse my typing it's a bit hard in an iron lung so I can get some oxygen
In 2011 the Sydney side was made up of Players from various clubs
Parramatta x 1
Gordon x 3
Norths x 1
Eastwood x 4
Warringah x 2
Souths x 1
Easts x 3
Randwick x 2
Penrith x 2
Manly x 1
Wests x 1
The country side had from Sydney clubs the following
Norths x 3
Eastwood x 2
Randwick x 1
Wests x 1
Every club had at least 1 player except ??

 

[Intruder]

No need to get personnel Bruce, please excuse my typing it's a bit hard in an iron lung so I can get some oxygen
In 2011 the Sydney side was made up of Players from various clubs
Parramatta x 1
Gordon x 3
Norths x 1
Eastwood x 4
Warringah x 2
Souths x 1
Easts x 3
Randwick x 2
Penrith x 2
Manly x 1
Wests x 1
The country side had from Sydney clubs the following
Norths x 3
Eastwood x 2
Randwick x 1
Wests x 1
Every club had at least 1 player except ??

(By Program)
1. Selsesi Manu
2. Scott Podmore
3. Eddie Aholehei
4. Phil Mathers
5. Ed Gower
6. Sean Doyle
7. Mitch Greenway
8. Tom Alexander
9. Dewet Roos
10. Dave Harvey
11. Hamish Angus
12. Toese Lealamanua
13. Tim Bennetts
14. Corey Brown
15. Liam Windon
16. John Fonokalafi
17. Richard Aho
18. Oliver Atkins
19. Jason Pesata
20. Jeremy Sua
21. Ed Doyle
22. Atelea Okati
23. Sam Talakai

Posted in the Shute Shield Thread 2011 fixture against Drummoyne Invitational XV.

 

[Knuckles]

I love a good Uni bash as much as the next person......but I'd actually like to bring the conversation back to the actual Sydney v Country game itself........and people, let's lay off Bruce.If you have an issue with Uni, keep it as Uni and not a personal crack at a great contributor to this website.

Now back to the game. I actually didnt mind the match. Sure there were some people in the Sydney side who did not deserve to be there on form....a number of guys who have been in reserve grade took the field for example. The Norths Hooker being one of them. But there's no question that the players there have been great servants of the sydney competition....so good luck to them. A couple of observations from the match though.

1) - Nathan Pearce. In my opinion, Nathan is an excellent referee. However, this was not his best match by a long shot. For 60 mins he only refereed one team. We will never know why, but I suspect it was intention to try keep Country in it for as long as possible.
2) - The young Warringah prop. He was put in with 1 minute to go. What an absolutely disgusting decision to keep the kid out of the match for that long. He was obviously only included for the purpose of peeling oranges.

Off the field, I am hearing rumours that 4 clubs have co-signed a letter to SRU raising their concerns about the experience. Can anyone confirm this? My source is not the most reliable and it certainly sounds unlikely that 4 clubs would actually get along with each other and work together............

 

[qwerty51]

The refereeing was a disgrace, I think the final penalty count was 13-2 to country not to mention that sin-binning for god knows what.

 

[Tahboy]

I hope they keep the game going each year but have it Sydney v the cockatoos and be good if they could have a colts game with Sydney v country and make it U/19 and each Sydney club has to have 2 players in the team? and if you cannot play if you played Aust schools or Aust A schools and give the other players a run

 

[SteveMerrick]

I might be able to, Cutter, but have no intention of doing so. It's not a coconut shy where anyone can have a go at me.

I don't keep records of teams, never have, not about to start. I took the trouble to go onto the NSW Country Rugby Union website this afternoon and saw the team selected on 6 June 2011 to play City. Of the 23 players just seven were listed as playing for Sydney Clubs. Sam Carter's name was not among them. One player was listed as playing for Tahboy's club. There are 12 Shute Shield Clubs. So by what criteria do you judge Tahboy's question as "legitimate"? He's a serial shit stirrer about Sydney Uni and doesn't deserve to be given oxygen.
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Give Uni a break - why would they want to play against a team that had a few weeks prior had been beaten for the second year running by NSW Subbies and even had a subbies player from the NSW Subbies side on the Country Bench...

If they are serious about the game it should be played on an origin basis from the players in the Shute Shield competition, they should then play a Shute Shield U/23 side vs. a country only County side. The Country Origin bench could be made up of the country only side players.

The concept is good but they need to make it more transparent and actually place some importance on it - for instance all players in the waratahs who have played less than 50 mins of game time at that point should have been available if they were eligible -

Sydney Uni shouldn't be made to apologise for their success - I recall in the mid-nineties a Uni centre shifting to a Subbies club and in three weeks going from Kentwell Cup to Whiddon Cup (3rd Grade) he went back to Uni and two weeks later was back in 1st Grade and Captain! Every dog has it's day and UNI are having theirs this decade! 20 years ago who would have thought Randwick would be at the bottom of the Shute Shield ladder.....