Should the Australian Rugby Championship come back.

[biggsy]

Australian Rugby is over for us. But we have the Wallabies at the moment. And I will go and watch my team play in the Brisbane Rugby Premier league.
But today I watched live rugby from NZL, I think now called ITC cup and S.A Currie cup.
The Question is as posted on thread.
I know it didn't go to well at the start, but through the off season should we still have a rugby comp like this, not to compete with ITC/CURRIE but for our top players and future players to have a challenging comp like they have. Because after playing super 14 and wallabies they go back to what we have today. This type of comp IMO is not the best and you can see.
We stop playing Super 14 and the rest go back to provincial rugby and get good hard game time. But with us our boys go back to premier rugby and TWITTER.

Look pass the money on this one and look into development of the game and players.
Should this comp back into play for the future of Aussie Rugby?
I think it should, but thats me a lover of the game.

 

[RugbyFuture]

two phases, initially ten teams, projected 15 teams after 10 years. dont mind the names, only concept column fillers.

 

[Langthorne]

Yes, we should have an ARC, for the benefit of the game in Australia. It may not make money initially, or ever, but over time I think it will gain interest and support, and would become more financially viable in and of itself. The benefit in both rugby and financial terms to rugby in Australia as a whole, from the outset, would be significant.

As for the format of the comp, and the make up of the teams, I have a couple of ideas.

The format needs to fit in well with the existing tiers and competitions, so all stakeholders need to be considered. I think John O'Neil would do a very good job of this, with his handling of the s15 expansion being a good example. It should also minimise the amount of travel required.

The team make up and locations should initially be in the areas where rugby is at least somewhat established (ie South Australia, Tassie and the NT would not be involved at first). The teams would then be from Perth, Melbourne, Canberra, NSW (representing Sydney, Western Sydney, Central Coast, or NSW Country) and QLD (representing Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, North Queensland, or QLD Country).

Rather than having feeder clubs for each team, I'd like to see a roster/draft system where players may be drafted to a team based on (in this order) Birth, Education, Residence, Club, S15 franchise. I think this system would have more of a 'State of origin' feel to it, and would make for more intersting combinations and permutations. How to organise the number and order of the drafting would depend on the size of player pool each area has access to - my guess is that Melbourne and Perth would get a few more early picks than the Sydney and Brisbane teams.

 

[Nusadan]

The cost is a major consideration and would limit the scope of the ARC as we know it...the distractions from the AFL and NRL makes Australia unique in comparison to SA and NZ to state the bleeding obvious...

Would it be more fiscally feasible to have a competition/tournament at the end of the home and away season of Sydney and Brisbane competitions (no finals, with the winner being at top of the table), with top four teams from each competition plus a couple of teams picked from the remaining teams and Canberra, and perhaps a combined team from all the other states...would need say 12 weeks to do it...it's doable...and the run home would after the NRL and AFL finals are over to generate extra interest...and still complete in time for the EOYTs to Europe...?

 

[TOCC]

sigh...

The ARC in the format that it was intially conceived was a failure, it alienated the grassroots and in turn cut itself off at the knees before it even started.

For a 'ARC-esque' competition to ever be a success, it needs support from all levels of rugby, the only way its ever going to get this is by appealing to the clubs of Brisbane and Sydney. The Sydney and Brisbane clubs are understandably hesitant about backing a ARC type competition because it means a drastic reduction in there sponsorship, crowds and share of representative footballers.

Soccer was able to push through the A-League because professional soccer was literally on its deathbed, the major clubs around the country had no choice but to back a comp. Whilst rugby union inst exactly flourishing in glory, its far from been on its deathbed, hence i doubt the clubs will support it.

 

[TOCC]

I think that Rugby Union needs to persue a similar path undertaken by the VFL and NSWRL, evolve the grass-roots level into a professional competition. Turn the Sydney Shute Shield into a professional competition by drawing some clubs from Brisbane and including a Canberra team.

Start by talking to the clubs about the structure of the comp, then proceed with a 8 team comp. 5 teams from Sydney, 2 teams from Brisbane and 1 team from Canberra.

Grant the licenses to the clubs who best meet a certain set of criteria, which include:
-Financial Equity
-Sponsorship
-Player Numbers
-Facilities
-Population catchment(proximity to other clubs)

The ARU/NSWRU agree to become the financial backers of a Western Sydney side which amalgamates Penrith and Parramatta therefore guaranteeing a Western Sydney presence, then the rest of the clubs pitch there cases. For some of the weaker clubs it may be beneficial for them to launch a joint bid with another club, so for example in Brisbane, Sunnybank, Souths and Easts could launch a joint bid to ensure they get a team.

In Sydney(excusing my ignorance of inter club rivalries) you could have a joint bid from Randwick, Eastern Suburbs and Sydney Uni.. Or Sydney Uni and West Harbour etc etc...

Without a doubt it will annoy some of the clubs who run the risk of missing out, but what it does do is ensures from day 1 that these clubs have strong links with the local communities, have established facilities, sponsorship support and development systems in place.

 

[stoff]

I think a concept similar to TOCC's above has some merit. Maybe the balance could be altered a bit though, allowing a promotion relegation from the Sydney and Brisbane premierships. This would mean that the clubs wouldn't have to lose their identity, and theoretically all have the same chance to play in the top tier comp. Maybe a four team from Brisbane, four from Sydney model where the bottom two teams from each city are relegated at the end of the year. The higher placed of the relegated teams would have the opportunity to play off with the lower of the promoted team to secure their place. The Sydney and Brisbane comp could also have playoffs after the end of their season for promotion, similar to the english soccer model.

I'll admit I would prefer to see a model that incorporated a Melbourne based team, but don't really see that working for any model that will be even close to self supporting itself.

 

[DPK]

I'm almost anti-ARC now, which is odd because when the ARC was running I was 100% in favour of it.

I now think the only viable option is expansion of the Juinor Tahs/Brumby Runners concept. Each franchise's academy/b team should be playing the curtain raiser or undercard as the senior team does. For example, (say) the Brumbies are playing the Tahs in Sydney. The 22 is picked for the Brumbies and Tahs, then those who miss the cut play in the Runners vs. Junior Tahs game, which is a combination of those who missed the cut and academy or rookie players needing that extra step up to the Super 5 level.

 

[RugbyFuture]

thers a problem with TOCC's suggestion in that it isolates some clubs and gives favour to others (mostlikely the most hated ones [usyd, randwick]) and doesnt actually grow the game, just means the same teams are playing different people. promotion/relegation wouldnt work with such a small countrie and small basic grassroots support.

my proposal takes into account tht the original clubs have to associate with another etc. (joint ventures) as he proposes though. atleast until they're made private

 

[TOCC]

thers a problem with TOCC's suggestion in that it isolates some clubs and gives favour to others (mostlikely the most hated ones [usyd, randwick]) and doesnt actually grow the game, just means the same teams are playing different people. promotion/relegation wouldnt work with such a small countrie and small basic grassroots support.

my proposal takes into account tht the original clubs have to associate with another etc. (joint ventures) as he proposes though. atleast until they're made private

It does run the rick of isolating those clubs which refuse to to launch a joint bid with another club.

However, placing a team in Sydney and forcing clubs to amalgamate based on there geographic location runs the risk of alienating all of the clubs(ala ARC).

RugbyFuture, there is no way in hell that rugby union can afford the competition that you have proposed, the travel costs alone would cripple the comp. First and foremost any competition needs to financially sustainable, that doesnt mean it needs to make a profit or even break even, but it does need to at least operate at a loss which is sustainable.

Hence why using established clubs with sponsorships, facilities, members and coaching staff already established is a much cheaper option. By limiting the competition to Brisbane, Sydney and Canberra initially you also minimise the transport costs which was a major factor in the $5million loss run by the ARC.

 

[Bowside]

In reguards to sponsorship, they need a major sponsor set up by the ARU who sponsors every club, and the other sponsors could just be the same sponsors as the super rugby teams use e.g. the two queensland teams could be sponsored by QR, which is the reds major sponsor, as well as Qantas, who sponsor the ARU.

They could also do what the NPC does and have a seperate minor sponsor for each jearsey, so local buisness can get involved.

Ideally if they could lure in buisnesses like 'jet star' and 'holiday inn' to sponsor the comp, that would work wonders for the logistics of it all.

 

[wamberal]

Ironically, the Shute Shield is now stronger, and produces more attractive and watchable rugby, than it ever has. This is primarily because Robbie Deans has encouraged Wallabies and fringe contenders to play in the Sydney comp. I hate to admit it, because I was a fan of the ARC concept, but the next logical step available now is to get the Shute Shield coverage broadened to include the whole country - and also for a package of highlights to be shown, preferably on Channel Nein, as part of their tv deal to cover the international games.


It is worth remembering that the top league competition in Oz, for many, many years, was the Sydney comp.

 

[RedsHappy]

RugbyFuture, there is no way in hell that rugby union can afford the competition that you have proposed, the travel costs alone would cripple the comp. First and foremost any competition needs to financially sustainable, that doesnt mean it needs to make a profit or even break even, but it does need to at least operate at a loss which is sustainable. ..... a major factor in the $5million loss run by the ARC.

TOCC, you're 100% right re the cash flow economics of this concept. Recall that JO'N went on record when he re-joined and stated that the ARC was bleeding cash so badly it could risk the viability of the ARU. He may have been exaggerating to dump on his predecessor, but there were demonstrable, unaffordable multi-million $ ARC losses when it was canned.

The big issue overall in a period when Aus rugby's core operating income is in continuing decline and the NSW RU and QRU are now in various forms of operating losses, is this: where would $Xm in investment in the game be best spent and how?

The available $m for loss-making new national projects aren't that big any more. Sponsorship is getting tougher and will surely worsen with the Wallabies' poor fortunes. Only the reviving Reds pulled more fans in in 2010 v 2009, and that was from a dangerously low 2009 level. Would any 'new investment' $s money be better spent on immediately upgrading the coaching and player base into the S15, with the goal of getting 2 or more Oz teams into the S15 finals asap, and getting more S15 teams into a position where their style of play will revive attendances - S15 and Wallaby attendances and related TV viewing figures are absolutely fundamental to the game's economic viability over the next 3 years. The impact of more negative trends in these 'elite' areas of the Oz code will potentially destroy the ability to have any spare $s for lower-level investment, whatever it may be.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Ironically, the Shute Shield is now stronger, and produces more attractive and watchable rugby, than it ever has. This is primarily because Robbie Deans has encouraged Wallabies and fringe contenders to play in the Sydney comp. I hate to admit it, because I was a fan of the ARC concept, but the next logical step available now is to get the Shute Shield coverage broadened to include the whole country - and also for a package of highlights to be shown, preferably on Channel Nein, as part of their tv deal to cover the international games.

As you probably realise, wamberal, the situation with the Shute Shield will be very different next year. The lengthening of the Super season plus the introduction of the Melbourne Rebels will mean that the "Wallabies and fringe contenders" will have very limited involvement in the Sydney Premiership competition.

As an extreme example, of the 15 players for Sydney Uni this afternoon probably only three would be available for the Club this time next year. The unavailability of professional players for club football may tend to even up the competition next year but it will inevitably lessen the attractiveness of the football played.

Clubs like Uni face an unprecedented challenge but the clubs with few professional players will also have serious problems if gate takings and bar sales significantly decline.

In terms of the question posed in the thread title, the introduction of Super 15 means that there is no realistic window during which an ARC competition could be played. And given that almost all advocates of it insist that the Sydney and Brisbane participation be based on synthetics, i.e., totally new entities or forced conglomerations of clubs, rather than the established clubs, it could never be viable.

 

[RugbyFuture]

much of those travel costs where based on hotel accomodation etc. i seem to recall the poeple who wanted it to continue said that by flying in and then out etc, rather than treating it like a super rugby franchise they could reduce costs by upto 3 mil. most of the sponsorships that current clubs have also wouldnt survive into a new national comp team and the resources indeed could be shared, all im saying is that you'd have to force associations like the original model and i would also make sure that the uni's/ex private schoolers teams wouldnt be able to push their name onto anything. bad for the image in trying to attract a wider audience.

4th column in my table

 

[Bowside]

Yeah I agree with the bloke above. If rugby wants to move away from its 'toff' image, I dont think having a national comp with teams like sydney uni and GPS oldboys is going to neccissarily attract the right kind of fans and players.

Also can someone enlighten me as to the timing of when the super 15 comp is to be played. Will next year be different because of the RWC?

 

[wamberal]

As you probably realise, wamberal, the situation with the Shute Shield will be very different next year. The lengthening of the Super season plus the introduction of the Melbourne Rebels will mean that the "Wallabies and fringe contenders" will have very limited involvement in the Sydney Premiership competition.

The Shute Shield will still be worth televising nationally, even next year. I would worry more about the impact of the World Cup on player participation - the quality on display has been good pretty much all this season, even when your team was not at full strength. Believe it, or not.


About fifteen years ago I was living in Queensland, and the ABC televised a Brisbane club match every week from Ballymore - it might have been a one hour edited package, not sure now. The production quality was good, partly because Ballymore was a good venue for television. This has gone with the wind, the ABC shows the local league now and absolutely no local rugby.


Sadly, we do not have a boutique ground in Sydney - I suppose Millner could become one, but it would take a lot of money to upgrade the infrastructure.


Almost anything would be better than nothing, IMHO. We should just try to get some grassroots rugby onto national television on a weekly basis, properly done from a production point of view, it would help promote the game. In Queensland there is absolutely no rugby shown on FTA, outside the Tests. This is a ridiculous state of affairs.

 

[RugbyFuture]

well i think everyone has the strange feeling that the super rugby is starting to develop into three domestic comps with a southern hemisphere cup. 3 strong domestic comps building from it.

 

[Aussie D]

As we seem to be moving more into an argument on the pros and cons of Shute Shield expansion I have mentioned on several occasions over the years that the Shute Shield should be moved to a Sunday as presently it is impossible for a core of die hard rugby fans to go along and watch their local team. The reason? Simple - it is played at the exact same time as Subbies. Playing it on a Sunday / Saturday night (7:30 kick-off - though don't play it at the same time as a test) would hopefully allow for Subbies players / supporters to come along and watch the next tier up go around. Not sure how this would affect amatuers (work next day though league players can do it) and the religious (don't know how many of them are still out there in the Michael Jones mould).

 

[Scarfman]

Every fucken oval in Sydney and Brisbane has mungos on it on Sundays.