Selection politics and bias, Gold Squads unfairness etc.

[Gooner]

at the moment and for some time there is a large area of the main Scots oval fenced off - looks like a construction fence.
Depending on how many have been sent to Scots could be a space issue.
Gooner: how old is your boy and is he a back or a forward?

He is 15 so will be in the U16's squad. He has only been playing rugby for only a couple of years so the backs was the best place to start as he could transition from league. He is also training with the Cronulla Sharks Harold Mathews Squad.

 

[gilbert15]

This years NGS introduction meeting is this arvo, those invited to attend will become clearer.

 

[Gooner]

It seems everyone here is very happy, given the thread is meant to be about selection unfairness it could be that the net cast for this mob has been very wide. I have noticed in previous posts that some have felt a little too wide. This as does many socialist Ideas nobles the top performers and turns a good Idea into a great leveller. Those that are looking to develop their game are slowed by those that cant catch.

is the program about developing players or disciples

In response to your points raised:



· ‘selection unfairness’ – although my boy was selected for this program I am under no illusion going forward that selection into representative sides will be as straightforward as he doesn’t attend a GPS/CAS school. A strategy will need to be considered when these selection trials come up. The positive aspect about this program is that it appears they are looking far and wide to identify boys with potential who can develop. In my boy’s case, if this program did not exist he would focus on rugby league. This program gives him a pathway that keeps him motivated and in the game.



· ‘the net cast for this mob has been very wide’ – I would hope that the net is cast as wide as possible to give as many boys the opportunity to develop without sacrificing the quality of the program. I will be able to let you know next week, after the Scott’s session how talented the pool is.

 

[Hugie]

All,
My son was selected into the JGS in Wollongong (so take my observations with a grain of salt), my observations from the introduction session:

• 24 selected, 10X U18-U17 and 14X U16-U15.
• Selectors were not swade by size as 2 that were selected are very skillful, but too small at this stage will grow.
• In the introduction it was spelt out "now you don't have to go to a big rugby private school to have a pathway". Those of you who know the Illawarra junior rugby know that the GPS schools have done a lot of damage to Illawarra rep teams over the years. Clearly an attempt to address the problem of the preception created by the GPS.
• All the boys that were selected have been long term committed to rugby.
• All but one of the boys selected were the ones I would have gone with so I'm very pleased with what they were looking for. What I look for first is high work rate and commitment, and they seem to have gone with that.
• It looks like a great program.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Couldn't agree more. My young bloke (16), was in a country based JGP as an Outside Centre and stuffed his shoulder at one of the sessions. He will also be at the Scots JGP, however this time as a Lock after a substantial growth spurt. Where will he finish up? Who knows, it will probably take another 5-7 years to grow into the body, however I think his days in the backs are now only a memory.
We were also told at Kings that there are over 100 "selectors" Australia wide who contribute to the make up of these squads. Perhaps if/when they are published it will become clearer who has missed out?
The next step up the line is the NGS of 70-90 players and it could be that some of the ommissions are already in that rare air.

No the kids I'm hearing about are only in the 14s age group

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Those of you who know the Illawarra junior rugby know that the GPS schools have done a lot of damage to Illawarra rep teams over the years.

i dont know the Illawarra - what is the background there?

 

[Hugie]

A couple of years ago Illawarra had a very strong rep team in what this year was the U17s. Then they lost at least 6 of that team to the GPS amonst them Rory Davis and Corey Tullock and others. This year the Illawarra U17s had real trouble putting a team together at all. It was a real tribute to the coach that they didn't get thrashed by cricket scores, they were in fact competative.
The real damage is done not by loosing players BUT by the perception that is created in the boys by this this practice, that you have to go to a GPS school or you'll never make it, so stick to "our game" this is a huge free kick for league. As I said I was really pleased to see the ARU starting to address this.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A couple of years ago Illawarra had a very strong rep team in what this year was the U17s. Then they lost at least 6 of that team to the GPS amonst them Rory Davis and Corey Tullock and others. This year the Illawarra U17s had real trouble putting a team together at all. It was a real tribute to the coach that they didn't get thrashed by cricket scores, they were in fact competative.
The real damage is done not by loosing players BUT by the perception that is created in the boys by this this practice, that you have to go to a GPS school or you'll never make it, so stick to "our game" this is a huge free kick for league. As I said I was really pleased to see the ARU starting to address this.

Vital to have a pathway outside the private school systems.
Given the developmental nature of these squads they don't actually address the issue of how you can give non GPS/CAS/ISA kids reliable weekly competition.
The ARU couldn't cope without these systems but if they don't get something concrete happening outside them they will find good talent harder to come by than ever once AFL start targeting known rugby juniors with athletic potential and abandon their, to date, somewhat scatter gun recruiting policies.


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[CTPE]

I am guessing but given the public service nature of that characters posts it may not be appropriate for CTPE to reply
whether they are likely or potential you may find those players are more likely to be with the national God squad and not this Junior gold squad or whatever they are called

You are pretty spot on - there were not too many 2012 Opens players returning next year there. Plenty of U16's players from Joeys, Kings, View, Scots, New and a couple from Shore as well. No doubt plenty of these are hopeful of jumping fro U16As level to first XV in 2013.

 

[Hugie]

Inside Shoulder,

You are absolutely right, none of this means anything unless we grow the game at the grass routes level. Surely this has to be the number one priority of the ARU.

 

[sarcophilus]

Vital to have a pathway outside the private school systems.
Given the developmental nature of these squads they don't actually address the issue of how you can give non GPS/CAS/ISA kids reliable weekly competition.
The ARU couldn't cope without these systems but if they don't get something concrete happening outside them they will find good talent harder to come by than ever once AFL start targeting known rugby juniors with athletic potential and abandon their, to date, somewhat scatter gun recruiting policies.

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The club system is OK but unfortunately usually relies on a handful enthusiastic volunteers and benevolent sponsors. This may not work so well if your son has to compete with theirs for a spot.

Supporting the club by being involved yourself may counter or moderate this a bit and unless you are really embarrassing enhance the relationship with your lad(s). I am hoping mine will forgive me by the time he is 30ish.

The politically astute generally manage to find their way well carried by their minions to places of higher influence. If you weren't there early enough to get the song book (or you don't like the music) its hard to keep up with the chorus. If you have or can consistently pretend to have a hobbit, Kiwi or safa accent the locals will assume you know more than them and might let you change the song book. Accents from other Rugby playing nations remind us too much of the round ball game and may be viewed with some suspicion. unless of course you are built like Topo Rodriguez or Noriaga (Don't let on you were one of the back three as these too are viewed a little more like those from federation football)
When you get bored It is always fun to try and find the characters from Williamson's play, Just hope your son doesn't end up the pot smoking hero that makes up stories about intra familial relationships. I am not sure if the caricatures get stronger the higher on the ladder but there seem to be some doosies up there

please accept this conversation as a bit of fun, there is some small truth here but the spray is general and may or may not be applied as you see fit.

 

[sarcophilus]

Just a guess including religion and politics in your post you are not one of the students of this program!? do you have a son here carrying the "Prol" albatross? or a surprising omission?

not telling and irrelevant Wood Rat

 

[whatever]

He is 15 so will be in the U16's squad. He has only been playing rugby for only a couple of years so the backs was the best place to start as he could transition from league. He is also training with the Cronulla Sharks Harold Mathews Squad.

Congratulations to your young bloke; but can I pass on a word of warning.

My youngest bloke was in a similar position a few years ago; JGS squad and junior rep league side. He was training 4 times a week, Sundays with JGS and three times with the district rep side (which included 1 weight session). This was from November of the preceding year, by round 5 of league rep season he had the onset of stress fractures in his back; recovered to play in the finals, but by August in his district comp - you can guess. A full blown stress fracture in his back.

Point - ensure these young blokes who are still going through puberty (growing every day) don't over do it.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

whatever I'm surprised that the league side of your equation didn't put a stop to this: I gather they don't endorse the idea of playing other sports.
From what I've heard, if the ARU learned about this now they would have a long chat before it got to the point it reached with your boy. That chat does not include an ultimatum to drop league - quite the contrary: they tell you to come back when you've got league out of your system.
In the long run union offers far more opportunities than league and the long run is what counts.
Did your boy get over his issues?


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[Gooner]

Congratulations to your young bloke; but can I pass on a word of warning.

My youngest bloke was in a similar position a few years ago; JGS squad and junior rep league side. He was training 4 times a week, Sundays with JGS and three times with the district rep side (which included 1 weight session). This was from November of the preceding year, by round 5 of league rep season he had the onset of stress fractures in his back; recovered to play in the finals, but by August in his district comp - you can guess. A full blown stress fracture in his back.

Point - ensure these young blokes who are still going through puberty (growing every day) don't over do it.

Cheers Whatever - your advice is appreciated. Hopefully your son made a full recovery. Is he still playing?

We will closely monitor him from a physical and mental perspective. It appears this training schedule almost seems like the norm when compared to his peers that attend sports schools.

He is quite diligent with regard to recovery - rest, hydration, protein shakes, skins etc. If he does show signs of fatigue or injury we will reduce his training.

Again, thanks for the advice. Training starts tonight - it will be interesting to assess the delivery of the program compared to the JGP.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

it will be interesting to assess the delivery of the program compared to the JGP.

I would be very interested to hear your views on the comparison between them.

 

[whatever]

whatever I'm surprised that the league side of your equation didn't put a stop to this: I gather they don't endorse the idea of playing other sports.
From what I've heard, if the ARU learned about this now they would have a long chat before it got to the point it reached with your boy. That chat does not include an ultimatum to drop league - quite the contrary: they tell you to come back when you've got league out of your system.
In the long run union offers far more opportunities than league and the long run is what counts.
Did your boy get over his issues?


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#Cheers Whatever - your advice is appreciated. Hopefully your son made a full recovery. Is he still playing?

We will closely monitor him from a physical and mental perspective. It appears this training schedule almost seems like the norm when compared to his peers that attend sports schools.

He is quite diligent with regard to recovery - rest, hydration, protein shakes, skins etc. If he does show signs of fatigue or injury we will reduce his training.

Again, thanks for the advice. Training starts tonight - it will be interesting to assess the delivery of the program compared to the JGP.#

Yes, he made a full recovery.

I offer this advice as a generic warning to all parents of talented footballers (HM & SG ball, union rep footy); this period can be very destructive on growing bodies. They go from a season of footy preceeding these rep years (ending in early September) into a heavy pre-season training (early November), then the commencement of trials and comp games in January then into district and school games plus additional rep footy (league and/or union).

It is possible to play a huge number of games over a short period (and when adding on the heavy training schedule); it is not surprising some bodies breakdown. Don't know much can be done except keep a close eye on them (and assist, where possible, in their recovery from training and games).

 

[sarcophilus]

Vital to have a pathway outside the private school systems.
Given the developmental nature of these squads they don't actually address the issue of how you can give non GPS/CAS/ISA kids reliable weekly competition.
The ARU couldn't cope without these systems but if they don't get something concrete happening outside them they will find good talent harder to come by than ever once AFL start targeting known rugby juniors with athletic potential and abandon their, to date, somewhat scatter gun recruiting policies.


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So the private schools help ARU build the barrel and the clubs, and schools government and outside the public and wannabe public school systems stock it with the fish.

Although the JGS etc system takes a long view of developing Club players there are a few interested entities that could well use this as a market place. As magnanimous as those entities would have us believe they are I am sure the great gesture saves some leg work. They will still shop

The reciprocal for them in the current arrangement ..... Maybe some of the omissions and inclusions mentioned earlier help train up fringe players that are part of "the system" to the exclusion of players with potential whose parents don't know the handshake or what happened in the dorms in 1978.
Perception is important, does the relationship with some schools feed the sense of elitism? I would guess those schools hope so.
Do such elitist attitudes help the development of rugby?..... I'm not sure if for them that question is important but they know how to make the right sounds.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Well, the short point is that a public game which aspires to appeal to the general public both to play and watch should not rely on private schools to produce, as a by product of their missions to educate, Wallabies.

The long point is:
One cannot blame the schools - they were playing the game before there was an ARU or even, I think, a Southern Union (which became NSWRU).
The schools do not have to kowtow to anyone and can emphasise or de-emphasise rugby or any other sport as they see fit and, increasingly importantly at some of them, as their demographic shifts.
This last fact creates an additional vulnerability for the ARU - additional to the fact that they, or the NSWRU or SJRU or their equivalents, do not provide a properly structured and reliable competition for kids 15-18 who do not attend these private schools. Worse still, as is their right, the schools prevent their kids from playing club/rep rugby outside the school.
Then you have the fractured school systems which by historical accident play one another but increasingly rarely do they play any school from another system.
Its not the schools' job to promote the joy of union.
As i understand it league does provide comps: Harold Mathews, SG Ball. I don't know about AFL.
So if you are a budding elite player of a collision sport played with an ovoid ball who is not at one of these schools the temptation to play league and to get competition that is a known quantity from year to year must be tremendous.
It is only likely to become more so as more money creeps into league thanks to its recent TV deal.

 

[sarcophilus]

Well, the short point is that a public game which aspires to appeal to the general public both to play and watch should not rely on private schools to produce, as a by product of their missions to educate, Wallabies.

• private schools shouldnt rely on ARU to deliver the servents to their door

The long point is:
One cannot blame the schools - they were playing the game before there was an ARU or even, I think, a Southern Union (which became NSWRU).
.

• we earnt the right to mannage the game like we earnt our money/influence... the old fashioned way....inheritted it?
• The captains of industry, solicitors and accountants have been gettin tradesmen in for years so their friends from chambers can remark on their wonderful decorating skills at hosted garden parties. Its important they train their progeny early that so you employ the children of the same tradesmen to carry their sons to a trophy, they to then pretend to get down and dirty with the common man for an hour or two a week. They can pretend they are delivering Henrys speach before Argincourt

Rugby will become increasingly irelivent (in this country) if that is the attitude