Scrum - Wallabies Vs Wales

[DPK]

We should have broken the bank to get the Franks brothers back to their homeland in Aus

Whatever skill they now show wouldn't exist, they would have been coached into the shit house.

 

[Nusadan]

We should remember the zenith of the Wallabies scrummaging prowess...think it was around in the year 1990 when the forwards pack pushed the seemingly mighty Welsh pack back over for a pushover try...or was it a penalty try? The crowd there got very quiet!

 

[topo]

We should remember the zenith of the Wallabies scrummaging prowess...think it was around in the year 1990 when the forwards pack pushed the seemingly mighty Welsh pack back over for a pushover try...or was it a penalty try? The crowd there got very quiet!

1984 Grand Slam tour at Cardiff Arms park.
Rodriguez, Lawton and McIntyre in the front row.
Horse Williams and Cutler in the 2nd row.

The thing I love about that try is that the Wallabies were going nuts and jumping up and down about scoring a pushover try at the Arms Park but Rodriguez turned around and jogged back to half way as if nothing had happened. He's the man!

 

[Scotty]

In any event given the limited squad available there is only three props in the squad worth a Test jersey ATM and they are already there. The key will have to be the pack's committment to the scrum and that extra effort required will leave holes to be exploited by our opponents. If Pocock is forced to remain on the scrum to hold it up who will cover for Cooper? Giteau cannot do it as he is struggling to hold his own opponents lately. Genia is a possibility but that leave another hole as we saw against NZ when he drifted too quickly in cover for Cooper and left a massive hole.

If these issues become apparent early on in the game then Deans has to go to the bench and introduce Burgess and Barnes to shore up the defence around Cooper. The set piece has to be solid and that means the back row has to stay bound and do that no covering for anothers defenisve liabilities

There is an easy fix for this. Have the much improved Beale defend at 10 off the opposition scrum. If we happen to get a scrum win against the feed then he is also good enough to act as the flyhalf.

 

[Scotty]

As for Noriega, I don't think the scrum has improved this year at all, it is just we have been playing lessor scrums since we played England, so we have seen a mirage of stability while we play lessor scrummaging teams or in the case of the ABs, a side less interested in scrummaging us into the ground.

From my recollection there was a massive scrum improvement from the first England game to the second one in June. Of course we then forgot to turn up at the breakdown.

 

[RugbyReg]

1984 Grand Slam tour at Cardiff Arms park.
Rodriguez, Lawton and McIntyre in the front row.
Horse Williams and Cutler in the 2nd row.

The thing I love about that try is that the Wallabies were going nuts and jumping up and down about scoring a pushover try at the Arms Park but Rodriguez turned around and jogged back to half way as if nothing had happened. He's the man!

Don't undervalue the work of Bird Tuynman, Poido and David Cody either. Check it out at about 4.20

No meerkatting by the back row.

[video=youtube;Zo6u6HVSbe8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo6u6HVSbe8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo6u6HVSbe8[/video]

 

[RedsHappy]

Whatever skill they now show wouldn't exist, they would have been coached into the shit house.

TK, as DPK you may recall that I was on record some months ago in saying we absolutely need something along the lines of an Australian Rugby Forwards Academy (ARFA), either as a fixed unit in say SYD or BNE, or as a mobile skills unit that designs specialised development pathways and intensive technical support and coaching for elite forwards state by state. I set out the competencies (people and technology) I thought were needed to be inbuilt into an ARFA. I was not at all saying this was THE solution, but a core component of what is required to genuinely deepen Australia's forwards skills, depth and consistency and to give our forwards more 'status' and prominence in our code overall. One of the reasons that NZ is where it is in rugby, is the wonderful balance they achieve between forwards talent and skill development, and that of backs. Few other countries achieve this, but IMO Australia could if we invested more in our forwards development in depth, and, importantly, raised the relative prestige and standing of forwards skills and their crucial role in sustained top line success (of a type that has now eluded us for about 10 years).

Forwards capabilities, whether it be scrummaging, breakdown intensity and skills, forwards-based defence and 'mongrel' counter rucking etc, have been a consistent achilles heel in elite Australian rugby for much of the prof era. The darkest period where this was most realised was probably the E Jones era, and then the painful culmination of all such can be expressed in just one word: Marseilles. (And, btw, on current showings and selections, I for one have become very worried that we could see Marseilles II (or a version thereof) in October 2011.)

 

[Rothschild]

A quote from a senior representative coach in qld a couple of years back - "not concerned with what goes onin the forwards - only look at backs".
If you know they guy you would not doubt it and now understand why we have a problem.
Our scrum is neglected from day 1 in mini rugby. We are the only one of the major unions that implement these laws and it is paying vast dividends in our scrum being smashed year in year out.
We do not have a proper identification at younger ages and we shirk the responsibility of proper scrum coaching through the formative years by falling back on the 1.5m push in under 18 and our exaggeration of the safety considerations.
Now don't say I am not concerned about safety - I am totally concerned however our teaching techniques have labored under the misapprehension of minimal scrum training in order to minimise possible injury.
I advocate specialised training from day 1 building up to age 18 where a front rower should be nearly technically correct and capable.
Nowadays they are no anywhere near competancy.

 

[DPK]

I agree RH, but I think it would be more feasible to have camp's rather than a full time academy. I think that's how the NZ's have done it previously. Hire a bunch of consultants, have a 6 week camp with all the forwards needed and use it for selection purposes, as well as training purposes.

 

[RedsHappy]

A quote from a senior representative coach in qld a couple of years back - "not concerned with what goes onin the forwards - only look at backs". If you know they guy you would not doubt it and now understand why we have a problem. Our scrum is neglected from day 1 in mini rugby. We are the only one of the major unions that implement these laws and it is paying vast dividends in our scrum being smashed year in year out. We do not have a proper identification at younger ages and we shirk the responsibility of proper scrum coaching through the formative years by falling back on the 1.5m push in under 18 and our exaggeration of the safety considerations. Now don't say I am not concerned about safety - I am totally concerned however our teaching techniques have labored under the misapprehension of minimal scrum training in order to minimise possible injury. I advocate specialised training from day 1 building up to age 18 where a front rower should be nearly technically correct and capable. Nowadays they are no anywhere near competancy.

Rothschild - I hope you are one - based upon my son's experience in both Sydney and Brisbane junior rugby, I would, overall, absolutely agree with you. My son is a back, but I have seen time and again the type of explicit and implicit Australian 'preference' for backs skill development and coaching focus overall; not in every case, but in many cases over the 7 years he's been playing (he's nearly 13 now). My son in 2009 toured a few of the top rugby junior schools in NZ, and the better coaching balance overall, forwards v backs, was palpable after just a few days exposure there (and in the way they played us!).

This year my son in his Brisbane team joined a team that (rarely) has both a forwards and a backs coach. The former is very, very good (well, both are good), and, voila, this year we were unbeaten 'premiers' of our U12 Div. The forwards learnt how to consistently win ball and keep possession and go forward, then our backs could perform to their best. Where have we heard this before.

 

[RedsHappy]

I agree RH, but I think it would be more feasible to have camp's rather than a full time academy. I think that's how the NZ's have done it previously. Hire a bunch of consultants, have a 6 week camp with all the forwards needed and use it for selection purposes, as well as training purposes.

TK - no problem at all with that suggestion, or versions of it. We just MUST IMO do something like this or the ARFA for our Australian forwards development, and lifting the profile and importance of our forwards within the code here.

 

[Groucho]

There is an easy fix for this. Have the much improved Beale defend at 10 off the opposition scrum. If we happen to get a scrum win against the feed then he is also good enough to act as the flyhalf.

Alternatively, put Cooper in the scrum for Elsom. This will both improve the scrum and add starch to the midfield defence.

 

[DPK]

Yeah, absolutely. Pato Noreiga had some sort of scrum camp this year didn't he? I think it was like a week or something though. Not really anything major.

Knowing the ARU, they'll probably just sit on their hands and expect the problem to fix itself.

 

[topo]

Yeah, absolutely. Pato Noreiga had some sort of scrum camp this year didn't he? I think it was like a week or something though. Not really anything major.

Knowing the ARU, they'll probably just sit on their hands and expect the problem to fix itself.

They had a thing going where a bunch of props (mostly the signed and academy guys but not regular Super Rugby starters) got together every Wednesday at Victoria Barracks for some scrum work with Pato. From what I heard it was OK, the biggest benefit being a bunch of good props having to pack down a shitload of scrums against each other, and I think it got pretty competitive.
Kepu credited his improved scrummaging in the latter part of the Shute Shield to this work (but he may have been trying to get into Pato's good books).

 

[RedsHappy]

Yeah, absolutely. Pato Noreiga had some sort of scrum camp this year didn't he? I think it was like a week or something though. Not really anything major.

Knowing the ARU, they'll probably just sit on their hands and expect the problem to fix itself.

As highlighted, this is indeed my major fear. Any code supervisory body that stands by and lets 40+% of its base (QLD) slide over years into de facto bankruptcy (as happened with the QRU 2009) with no intervention, then has to, at great expense and debt to the code nationally, rescue it, is hardly distinguished by its capacity for strategic proactivity.

 

[DPK]

They had a thing going where a bunch of props (mostly the signed and academy guys but not regular Super Rugby starters) got together every Wednesday at Victoria Barracks for some scrum work with Pato. From what I heard it was OK, the biggest benefit being a bunch of good props having to pack down a shitload of scrums against each other, and I think it got pretty competitive.
Kepu credited his improved scrummaging in the latter part of the Shute Shield to this work (but he may have been trying to get into Pato's good books).

Thanks, topo. No substitute for someone who actually knows what they're talking about .

 

[Scotty]

The QRU should have been able to look after themselves, or ask for help earlier.

 

[Gagger]

Along with Gilbert and Sookface, I claim Meerkatting

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Forwards capabilities, whether it be scrummaging, breakdown intensity and skills, forwards-based defence and 'mongrel' counter rucking etc, have been a consistent achilles heel in elite Australian rugby for much of the prof era. The darkest period where this was most realised was probably the E Jones era, and then the painful culmination of all such can be expressed in just one word: Marseilles. (And, btw, on current showings and selections, I for one have become very worried that we could see Marseilles II (or a version thereof) in October 2011.)

The scrum yes, since 2003, but the others no. We are focusing a lot of attention on the scrum and rightly so, but that is only one area of forward play. Others, such as securing at the break down, clean out, hit ups, lineouts and restarts and forward defence aren't nearly so much of a problem. Fix the scrum and the other stuff is fine.

To hear some people talk, it's like we've got a bunch of U/15's out there in the pack. That is absolute fucking bullshit.

 

[Gagger]

What Link thought went wrong, via Twitter

We missed the hit often, 1/4 wheel and shove was good by wales, Comeback from injury by Alexander - short of match time