Scrum - Wallabies Vs Wales

[Gnostic]

Good Vid Gagger.

Supports to a large degree wat I have said previously and not just on this thread. Alexander has been rushed back and was obviously short of fitness and game time. Robinson is not anywhere near his best and to me looks to be carrying a lot of weight (fat).

Of real note to me in the vid is where Elsom is binding in the scrum His shoulder is resting on Alexander's lower back so he is offering no drive at all to Alexander.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

So Gnostic, who would you suggest be the starting props out of interest?

 

[Gnostic]

The problem is with the selection of the squad Hornet.

From the squad we have now IMO Robinson and Slipper. Given that Slipper played today it will be Alexander to start though.

As I posted at the time the selection of the whole squad was flawed from the start relying as it did on Alexander and Robinson. If Kepu and maybe Tilse, Fairbrother or Palmer had been selected I would be pushing for them to start, but a different front row will not solve the issues.

In any event given the limited squad available there is only three props in the squad worth a Test jersey ATM and they are already there. The key will have to be the pack's committment to the scrum and that extra effort required will leave holes to be exploited by our opponents. If Pocock is forced to remain on the scrum to hold it up who will cover for Cooper? Giteau cannot do it as he is struggling to hold his own opponents lately. Genia is a possibility but that leave another hole as we saw against NZ when he drifted too quickly in cover for Cooper and left a massive hole.

If these issues become apparent early on in the game then Deans has to go to the bench and introduce Burgess and Barnes to shore up the defence around Cooper. The set piece has to be solid and that means the back row has to stay bound and do that no covering for anothers defenisve liabilities

Anybody thought how the 8 should be assisting the bind of the Locks by keeping their hips together?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

OK, I'm a little confused here. On the one hand, you are saying the props are underdone and you are probably right about that. Fair enough. However, would you agree that they are our two best front rowers, as evidenced by their previous performances? I most certainly think they are. Tilse, Kepu et al are all capable guys but would you be pushing for them to start (and in Tilse's case making his test debut) against England, probably the premier scrummaging team in the world? I think it's better to have your best two players out there and prepare them well enough to deal with the rigours of test footy. We can only select so many props in the squad and it's really only Ma'afu who I wouldn't have taken. I might have taken Kepu, because he's at least played test footy before. I personally think Slipper should play more minutes this weekend, probably covering for Alexander.

As far as the back row binding and pushing, yes absolutely. I think the marker needs to be laid down in the early scrums, as Gags points out. A couple of eight man shoves to let the Poms know we are there and more importantly, to give the ref no excuse to penalise us. This means the back row binding tightly and pushing as a unit.

This leaves an issue with inside back defence and Barnes provides the natural solution there. The bloke can tackle and leads well in defence. Deans also has to go to QC (Quade Cooper) and tell him to tackle like his life depends on it. Genia is fine in defence and will cover the half back sniping around the fringes. I would expect Burgo to get some time though, as his running from the ruck base will cause some problems late in the game.

 

[Gnostic]

OK, I'm a little confused here. On the one hand, you are saying the props are underdone and you are probably right about that. Fair enough. However, would you agree that they are our two best front rowers, as evidenced by their previous performances? I most certainly think they are. Tilse, Kepu et al are all capable guys but would you be pushing for them to start (and in Tilse's case making his test debut) against England, probably the premier scrummaging team in the world? I think it's better to have your best two players out there and prepare them well enough to deal with the rigours of test footy. We can only select so many props in the squad and it's really only Ma'afu who I wouldn't have taken. I might have taken Kepu, because he's at least played test footy before. I personally think Slipper should play more minutes this weekend, probably covering for Alexander.

Why confused? Robinson and Alexander would be my first choice if fit. They are not IMO. From the flawed squad Deans selected though there are no other choices especially since Deans selected Slipper to play the mid-week game. So we have a default front row because there is nobody else in the squad and it will be that way in every test.

As I posted at the time Alexander should have stayed home to rest, recover and focus on being 100%. I am tempted to say the same for Fatcat but e had a couple of tests under his belt and while not 100% had enough signs then to suggest he could make it. As for Ma'afu he wouldn't have been near the squad.

Just in the front row a coach looking to the future and depth would have said, right we know what Finger gives (send him away to do shit load of strength and scrum work with Link), and select Charles in the developement place with Moore starting and Edmonds on the bench. Charles is right now better in the scrum than Edmonds. TPN is being rushed back and should be focussing on being 100% right for next year. Kepu should have been selected for all the reasons we know. Then I would have selected a developement prop to expose to the squad environment like Tilse, Ryan, Fairbrother or Palmer, with probably Fairbroter getting the nod.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Alexander's issue is not fitness, it's game time to get back to where he was. I still think he's a better prop than any of the alternatives. His injury was to his knee and that's looked to have healed, so he's available. Leaving him home to train doesn't really help him much or the team. If he's fit, he plays. Saia's size was a real issue last week and if Moore is fit, then he plays. I agree with you on the other points about hookers. I would have taken Charles, as he looks like being a good player down the track.

 

[Bullrush]

Alexander's issue is not fitness, it's game time to get back to where he was. I still think he's a better prop than any of the alternatives. His injury was to his knee and that's looked to have healed, so he's available. Leaving him home to train doesn't really help him much or the team. If he's fit, he plays. Saia's size was a real issue last week and if Moore is fit, then he plays. I agree with you on the other points about hookers. I would have taken Charles, as he looks like being a good player down the track.

Given that Palu is still injured, I was surprised Kepu didn't go. He's a guy who would probably bring a bit of that 'hard man' edge to the pack.

 

[Richard D. James]

I think we need to be careful not to focus too much on the scrum and assume England will play the same game plan Wales did. The English pack know they will just have to scrummage as they normally do to be dominant, while we will have focused on it all week. If England come out and play wider like they did in the second half against the ABs we could find ourselves in trouble. Especially if they get their big centres to run at our little ones all day and use their strike runners in the back three.

I don't think this will be the same one-dimensional England we are used to and all the scrum talk this week might be a bit of a ruse to cover a more expansive game plan. They talked up scrum domination thing in 2008 and it didn't work. I'm not sure they will try it again.

edit: also the breakdown will, as always, be the most important area and we will need to be strong there.

 

[Richo]

Can't see the English foxing on this one. Probably the same game plan as against the ABs, using even greater scrum dominance as the platform for wider attacks later in the game.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

To my mind the scrum is their best weapon against us, as well as the counter ruck at the breakdown. If we are secure in our possession and shut them down in midfield it will help immensely. England are not like the AB's or the Boks who can score a lot of points quickly and put the game out of reach. They attempt to wear their opposition down and gain physical dominance. That's not normally the kind of game that produces a lot of tries, but it can beat you by the "death by a thousand cuts" method. We will need to be lethal on the counter and take every opportunity. In other words, pretty similar to the way the AB's won last week.

 

[Gnostic]

Looking at the likely English team they would be crazy not to force their dominance of the scrum. If they don't score lots from penalties and get field position from it, they will hamstring the Oz backrow but making them stay fully comitted. This then opens the massive defensive liability at 10 to attack.

I can't see the Poms getting the ball wide quickly as they just don't have the midfield or the 10 to make wide quick ball. They do have a very good team to play steady phase ball and build pressure.

I know the there are a limited number of scrums in a game but if the Poms can get a scoring opportunity from each one either directly or by field position then it isn't beyond the realms of possibility for them to win the game on the back of it. How many games has Oz lost because they didn't convert the small number of true scoring chances that occur in test matches.

 

[kiap]

Video analysis above much appreciated. :thumb Instead of relying on hazy memory, it makes a difference seeing it all packaged together. Cheers to Gagger.

Probably old news, but forums like this often seem to be in the vanguard for stories like this... Article today from News Ltd: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ubject-for-jokes/story-e6frg7o6-1225950406078

The latest joke doing the rounds here at the expense of the Wallabies is their scrum machine might be in for a hard week.
. . .
But now the joke is starting to turn funny, as in peculiar. One South African scrum expert bizarrely has even suggested the Australian second-rowers are deliberately binding together loosely so as to "channel their energy directly behind the props" to help them counter whatever moves are being worked by the opposition front row.
. . .
... when the "loose locks bind" theory was put to Australian scrum coach Patricio Noriega yesterday, he was flabbergasted. No way is that what he is teaching his forwards. Nor, it can safely be said, does Noriega want backrowers McCalman, Rocky Elsom and David Pocock to be raising their heads like meerkats whenever the scrum is in trouble, as happened on several occasions in the Wales Test.
. . .

A fair enough read, but I reckon all the good oil was covered here. The meerkat description was particularly apt. Wasn't mentioned in that SARugby article, funnily enough, but it did bring a smile when reading on here a few days back.

<edit>
And Gagger's analysis has been picked up by the UK Telegraph now as well: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/sp...and-v-Australia-Wallabies-scrum-analysis.html. Must bump the audience numbers, surely.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Geez Gags next stop world domination. Well the rugby world anyway.

 

[Brumbieman]

The problem is with the selection of the squad Hornet.

From the squad we have now IMO Robinson and Slipper. Given that Slipper played today it will be Alexander to start though.

As I posted at the time the selection of the whole squad was flawed from the start relying as it did on Alexander and Robinson. If Kepu and maybe Tilse, Fairbrother or Palmer had been selected I would be pushing for them to start, but a different front row will not solve the issues.

In any event given the limited squad available there is only three props in the squad worth a Test jersey ATM and they are already there. The key will have to be the pack's committment to the scrum and that extra effort required will leave holes to be exploited by our opponents. If Pocock is forced to remain on the scrum to hold it up who will cover for Cooper? Giteau cannot do it as he is struggling to hold his own opponents lately. Genia is a possibility but that leave another hole as we saw against NZ when he drifted too quickly in cover for Cooper and left a massive hole.

If these issues become apparent early on in the game then Deans has to go to the bench and introduce Burgess and Barnes to shore up the defence around Cooper. The set piece has to be solid and that means the back row has to stay bound and do that no covering for anothers defenisve liabilities

Anybody thought how the 8 should be assisting the bind of the Locks by keeping their hips together?

Seriously? Are you taking the piss? :S


Fairbrother?:lmao: Tilse?! "Superprop" my arse. :-\ Palmer is, to quote fatprop, a potplant.

Stop being such a drama queen. We've got two very good international props who are not 100% in terms of strength and fitness. And you're incredibly quick to slander Ma'afu, yet incapable of putting aside your hatred and realising that he's actually the form aussie tighthead. He'll never be world class, but he's playing very well and our scrum (with a couple of lapses in concentration) essentially held its own all through the tri-nations, with Ma'afu at tighthead. Him and Slipper are currently our two form props, which is also quite remarkable, and a testament to Noriega's skill as a coach, considering how quickly the scrum improved over the winter.

Yet Deans of course is useless and got it all wrong and should be sent back to NZ. Its time you stopped slandering everyone and actually supported your team, instead of bitching.

 

[fatprop]

Fairbrother is a far better THP than Ma'afu and it would have been nice to have an experienced THP in the squad.

My only real issue with Deans is his love of younglings and his disinterest in experienced units, he did the same to the ABs.

As for Noriega, I don't think the scrum has improved this year at all, it is just we have been playing lessor scrums since we played England, so we have seen a mirage of stability while we play lessor scrummaging teams or in the case of the ABs, a side less interested in scrummaging us into the ground.

The Welsh have always been smart scrummagers and we got owned

As for Tilse, he was very very good in the S14 starting at LHP against good scrums, he scrummaged very well and he is excellent around the field, I expect he will get his chance after the RWC for the Wallabies.

Palmer? Despite his failings around the field he has the ability to lock down the the scrum.

If we can accept Coopers failings maybe we need to accept Palmer's lack of game for certain games such as England? because I expect them to muller us at scrum time this week by playing underdone props

Further, what the hell has Weekes done wrong? He looked the best Aus THP with Baxter, but seems to have been ignored

 

[TheTruth]

fatprop
have to agree with the Laurie weekes comment - was the form THP in S14 - and wonder what he did or didn't do - shame he has gone to Rebels as reckon he would have excelled with the Reds in 2011

 

[RedsHappy]

fatprop have to agree with the Laurie weekes comment - was the form THP in S14 - and wonder what he did or didn't do - shame he has gone to Rebels as reckon he would have excelled with the Reds in 2011

TT, strongly agree with you, fp and gnostic on these items re forwards/props stocks. We actually have prodigious talent in Australian rugby, and I am sure we are all proud of it. The list of relevant prop candidates here highlights our opportunities for the future. It is just that if top selections are not made to reflect the richness of talent irrespective of age or 'reputation', and contain inexplicable biases and 'favourites', and thus on the playing field we become the prisoner of self-imposed limitations, then the illusion of a lack of depth is created, when in fact there is depth and real, viable alternatives reflecting all that is good in Australian rugby.

 

[Nusadan]

TT, strongly agree with you, fp and gnostic on these items re forwards/props stocks. We actually have prodigious talent in Australian rugby, and I am sure we are all proud of it. The list of relevant prop candidates here highlights our opportunities for the future. It is just that if top selections are not made to reflect the richness of talent irrespective of age or 'reputation', and contain inexplicable biases and 'favourites', and thus on the playing field we become the prisoner of self-imposed limitations, then the illusion of a lack of depth is created, when in fact there is depth and real, viable alternatives reflecting all that is good in Australian rugby.

That depth you speak of...you'll possibly could find them doing otherwise in league or in surf boat rowing...what other countries, perhaps with possible exception of Kiwis...that can say the same?

Just need some bloody direction from the powers to be!

 

[fatprop]

That depth you speak of...you'll possibly could find them doing otherwise in league or in surf boat rowing...what other countries, perhaps with possible exception of Kiwis...that can say the same?

Just need some bloody direction from the powers to be!

We should have broken the bank to get the Franks brothers back to their homeland in Aus

 

[Lance Free]

Quote from ex Queensland and Wallaby prop Matt Ryan (C/- 15manrugby): "the Wallaby forwards were a laughing stock again on Sat night against the Welsh, our scrum was back to its worst. I just can't fathom leaving out Al Baxter , he was a disgrace for 60 tests and then finally came good. Here we are back at square one with guys who barely can srummage at the Super 14 level (which is a disgraceful level of scrummaging) up against the massive european foward packs."