Scrum - Wallabies Vs Wales

[Groucho]

That is one great piece

If it is right (and I'm not disputing it is) then why are our Kiwi coach and his Argentinian coach used the technique for the three years they've been in charge?

Somehow I think it is not so simple. Our scrum was strong a year ago, and the article glides right past that inconvenient fact.

The Wallabies have had parity with South Africa in the Tri-Nation for the past 2.5 years. How does that inconvenient fact fit into the current argument?

 

[Richard D. James]

If it is right (and I'm not disputing it is) then why are our Kiwi coach and his Argentinian coach used the technique for the three years they've been in charge?

Somehow I think it is not so simple. Our scrum was strong a year ago, and the article glides right past that inconvenient fact.

The Wallabies have had parity with South Africa in the Tri-Nation for the past 2.5 years. How does that inconvenient fact fit into the current argument?

Remember, they had Smit as a prop for most of that time.

I also think Robinson has been found out a bit... as fatprop has pointed out, he relies on getting a good hit and if teams deny him that his effectiveness is reduced.

 

[topo]

Remember, they had Smit as a prop for most of that time.

I also think Robinson has been found out a bit... as fatprop has pointed out, he relies on getting a good hit and if teams deny him that his effectiveness is reduced.

Robinson is not particularly big and not very strong for a prop. He is a very good "wrestler" who is very quick to get into position at the engage and is very effective against taller props. He is still a very effective LHP and will come good. IMO Alexander is more of a concern. He is still pretty new to THP. He gets away with it when he has a strong scrummaging hooker, but struggles when he doesn't.

 

[vidiot]

Remember, they had Smit as a prop for most of that time.

I also think Robinson has been found out a bit... as fatprop has pointed out, he relies on getting a good hit and if teams deny him that his effectiveness is reduced.

And the ref, as we saw in HK.

The other thing that evolves is the laws of the game and interpretations of same. Crouch, touch, pause, ____ , engage.

We really got in a muddle in HK with the cadence, and we were still very hesitant vs Wales. It may or may not be a policy decision from Paddy reduce anticipation on the hit.

Our 'style' of scrummaging, which in the end seems to rely on the front row winning the hit with less cohesion and support from the locks let alone the rest of the 8 suffers from it more (than other teams). I say that as someone who has never placed his head or any other anatomy in a scrum.

In any case we have to adapt.

 

[Scotty]

Robinson is not particularly big and not very strong for a prop. He is a very good "wrestler" who is very quick to get into position at the engage and is very effective against taller props. He is still a very effective LHP and will come good. IMO Alexander is more of a concern. He is still pretty new to THP. He gets away with it when he has a strong scrummaging hooker, but struggles when he doesn't.

I suspect that most THPs in international rugby would rely on a strong scrummaging hooker. However, at the very least he should be playing THP for the Brumbies if he wants to really improve in this position.

 

[Gnostic]

Thanks for the defence Scarfie, you are the only one to actually address the points instead of posting the same old tired stories.

It is very amusing that posters who lauded Noriega not two months ago now bag him for the scrum. This is the same bloke who took the cream puff Ma'afu from woeful 2nd grade to able to hold his own around 50% of the time.

My point is that Pato I am guessing has no real choice or input into who he gets in the scrum. I am certain that if Pato was selecting for the scrum Ma'afu and Finger wouldn't be in the squad let alone near a test jumper.

So Pato is told to make the silk purse from the sows ear, hence we return to my post from months ago that still adorns Langthorne's siggy.

 

[Jethro Tah]

Think the article that vidiot posted on the TPN thread is very pertinent here. From a Saffa site, some of the best scrum analysis I have seen in some time.

http://www.sarugby.com/2010/11/07/why-the-wallaby-scrum-flops/

Great article about the dark arts.

It's also so much harder to push when your head is not down. It seems to me that our loosies are just so worried about the opposition loosies breaking early and charging at Quade, Beale or JOC (James O'Connor), or whoever is there, that as soon as the hit is over then up pops the head.

Slight tangent. Even Quade could get some insight from the article with this paragraph:
"In the tackle, in concert with our legs and core, do we generate more power using just our arms to drive the ball carrier back, and to the ground? Or do we harness more strength using our shoulders first, and then quickly wrap the player with our arms? The answer is obvious. Rugby power is channelled through our legs, core and then shoulders."

 

[RugbyReg]

Thanks for the defence Scarfie, you are the only one to actually address the points instead of posting the same old tired stories.

It is very amusing that posters who lauded Noriega not two months ago now bag him for the scrum. This is the same bloke who took the cream puff Ma'afu from woeful 2nd grade to able to hold his own around 50% of the time.

My point is that Pato I am guessing has no real choice or input into who he gets in the scrum. I am certain that if Pato was selecting for the scrum Ma'afu and Finger wouldn't be in the squad let alone near a test jumper.

So Pato is told to make the silk purse from the sows ear, hence we return to my post from months ago that still adorns Langthorne's siggy.

Didn't he play every game for the Brumbies? So shouldn't the Brumby coaches get some credit for that?

 

[Gnostic]

Didn't he play every game for the Brumbies? So shouldn't the Brumby coaches get some credit for that?

No because in his very first game with the Wallabies his second grade club rugby brother served him up cold. There was even to my negative eye a clear progressive improvement in his scummaging from the 1st to the last test he played this year so the improvement took place without the astute input from Bill Young. Not enough that I ever want to see him play for Oz again but enough that Pato rightful got lauded for it on this very site.

 

[cyclopath]

No because in his very first game with the Wallabies his second grade club rugby brother served him up cold. There was even to my negative eye a clear progressive improvement in his scummaging from the 1st to the last test he played this year so the improvement took place without the astute input from Bill Young. Not enough that I ever want to see him play for Oz again but enough that Pato rightful got lauded for it on this very site.

Maybe he just got better from scrummaging against some decent opposition and learned the hard way? Who knows? Maybe he needs another 2 years of it and he might be pretty decent?

 

[Groucho]

No because in his very first game with the Wallabies his second grade club rugby brother served him up cold. There was even to my negative eye a clear progressive improvement in his scummaging from the 1st to the last test he played this year so the improvement took place without the astute input from Bill Young. Not enough that I ever want to see him play for Oz again but enough that Pato rightful got lauded for it on this very site.

I'm no more a fan of Ma'food than anyone else is, but it is simplistic in the extreme to say that his brother "served him up". As was tidily said on that edifying South African scrummaging piece, the back five provide the power and the front three serve it up. Who knows what went down in the Australian scrum that day? Anyone with an agenda could point to any player they didn't like in the forward pack that day, and say the same thing.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think that for all the pissing and moaning about our front row stocks that there has been little said about the quality of scrummaging locks. The aforementioned article touches on it, but my understanding of scrummaging has always been that the front row holds the scrum up and provides direction, but much of the real power and drive comes from the locks. If they aren't directing all that energy through the guys in front of them and straight, then you tend to get pushed backwards a lot.

I wonder if it would be worth switching out one of the locks on the weekend, as well as getting the back rowers to stay on and push when the need arises.

 

[Hawko]

I wonder if it would be worth switching out one of the locks on the weekend, as well as getting the back rowers to stay on and push when the need arises.

When the need arises? BH, I think you're either preaching through understatement or you missed the game last saturday. The need arose when the ref called "engage".

 

[Slim 293]

Let's not forget that Ma'afu completely dominated Woodcock in the Super 14 earlier in the year...

 

[Joe Blow]

I agree that we are just the armchair experts and the players and the coaches have a much better idea about what is actually going on in the scrum. However, it's not as simple as "they are trying their best and will probably work it out" or "we just don't have the cattle".

We had 4 very respectable S14 scrums (maybe 3 and 1 serviceable) yet have not been able to have a good scrummaging display all year at test level. And we all know this is not a new problem. We had a scrum that had taken great strides over the past 24 months and was becoming a solid platform most of the time and a destructive weapon on occasion.

These blokes are not park rugby players and coaches who get together on Tuesdays and Thursdays after work and do a couple of hours of fitness and team drills and try and bring it all together on Saturday afternoon.
We have the resources of the ARU available and a group of players and coaches who only do this, and get paid for it. We should have 16 blokes (plus coaches) in the squad who really are in tune with what our scrum is trying to do.
If these blokes worked for me I would be screaming bloody murder and heads would roll.

Hopefully they do get it together this week and the last performance was just a blip on the radar.

 

[JJJ]

You know that every scrumfeed England get the ball isn't going to be leaving the scrum until a penalty is given either way. Unless we somehow get clear dominance, which seems unlikely. So there's no excuse for meerkatting from our loosies.

 

[Langthorne]

Looks like we have to play it at their end and have all hands to the pump.

 

[Rothschild]

Quote from Mr. Norieaga after the game - "any one lifting their head again ina scrum will have it jammed up their arse" or word to that effect.
It appears the bosses know the problem - I just can'tunderstand why they kept doing it in the face of being penalised.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Quote from Mr. Norieaga after the game - "any one lifting their head again ina scrum will have it jammed up their arse" or word to that effect.

Just wondering where you got that quote from, Rothschild. I am not questioning that it was said, just interested in the source.

 

[Gagger]

Have just about finished a full vid analysis of all scrums from the weekend and I was a little surprised at what I found. Will have to wait for my morning though to finish - I'm shagged