Scrum Talk

[Lee Grant]

Get rid of the hit, feed the ball straight and we might actually see a contest for the ball and some real scrummaging.

As John Lennon would have said on this forum: "All we are saying is: give this a chance."


As already mentioned in this thread: the power hit has many malign consequences. One of the malignancies is that the hit makes front rowers stagger and they have to move their feet to get stable. This impairs the tunnel space and sometimes it disappears.

If folks are with me so far they will realise the consequences of this back in the late 1980s when the young hit was already 10 years old; not really a hit in this infant stage: more of a coordinated lurch.

The scrummie had the precious ball in his hands and the tunnel he had to put the ball into was literally disappearing before his eyes as the props' feet were moving so much. What did he do? What the coach said: "If their feet are moving just put the ball in behind the hooker's left foot and see how that goes."

As dozens then hundreds of scrummies started doing this some were pinged a lot and they stopped doing it, but as time rolled by referees, who were left like a shag on a rock by their own bosses, went along with it like corrupt police on the take. They had to get on with the game.

Gradually the hit-invoked crooked feed became the norm rather than the exception. Every now and then there was a Don Quixote ref who tilted at this crooked feed windmill and sometimes the feed was mentioned in a list of things the referees would crack down in a particular year. But the crooked feed lived on like a virus safe in the horrid environment of the power hit.

Gradually the hooking contest, a thing of intense interest back in the pre-hit days, disappeared, and like a patient suffering after a long cancer, the death of it was a bit of a blessing. If you couldn't have quality of the hooking contest, better to let the power hit win the battle so rugby life could move on.

It was not written anywhere but the effect was: Let them put the ball into the scrum like the league players do and forgo a contest - for the good of the game.

As someone else said: Forbid it, Almighty God.
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[yourmatesam]

There was a classic Aus v Wales (1996) match on Fox last night. For me, there were three glaring differences between now and then.
1. Scrums. They were set up quickly, body height was higher, the hit was there but nowhere near as pronounced as it is today, the set up was different in that the front row, second row and backrow set up as separate units. The scrum was totally different to the way it is now and there were minimal resets on a wet night at Ballymore.

2. Lineouts. This was just about the time when teams were "supporting" each other but lifting was still illegal. From my point of view, lineouts are much improved with the advent of lifting.

3. Breakdown. It was very messy, the breakdown appears to be managed a lot better now than it was back in the day, it's not perfect now, but is a lot cleaner.

I know this little review doesn't entirely focus on scrums but I wanted to make those other points too.

 

[Gnostic]

Tonight's Wallabies V Wales game is a great example of the problem that the hit has created with the scrums. I seriously suggest that any scrum with the Wallabies is a lottery, not only because of the random nature of the hit, but because of the reputation of the Wallabies scrums.

 

[It is what it is]

Tonight's Wallabies V Wales game is a great example of the problem that the hit has created with the scrums. I seriously suggest that any scrum with the Wallabies is a lottery, not only because of the random nature of the hit, but because of the reputation of the Wallabies scrums.

The most frightening 4 words a Wallaby supporter can hear are......."Scrum, inside Wallabies half".
We've reached a pivotal point with today's rugby balls and goalkickers too.
It's become too easy for too many kickers to kick goals from within 55 metres of the posts.
Golf reacted by changing golf ball and club designs to reduce distance. I also get it that it was done because golf courses are fixed in distance, but so is a rugby field.
Up until recently it was only at altitude that goals could be kicked from so far out.
A major issue for rugby today is ambiguous scrum rulings can too easily affect the outcome of a match.

 

[tragic]

Anyone see how the welsh scrum went in the 6N. Are we in for a torrid RC or did they work over the other NH sides as well?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Want to remove the "boring" scrum resets out of the game, and get the ball in contested play for more, then get rid of the "Hit". Simple.

Fat bastards can still contest effectively for the ball in a pushing and hooking contest without the hit.

 

[Rob]

Want to remove the "boring" scrum resets out of the game, and get the ball in contested play for more, then get rid of the "Hit". Simple.

Fat bastards can still contest effectively for the ball in a pushing and hooking contest without the hit.

IF you watched the AB vs BOks on saturday night you may have noticed that there were very few resets and very few collapses. Teh scrum was a real contest. Why? Because unlike the situation in Australia they have proper props not converted backrowers.

Australian props are mainly Frankensteins i.e. manufactured by the ARU machine. My observation is that at State adn Aus level selection of props is largely on irrelevant statistics like sprints, benchpress, squats etc rather than if you can actually hold up a scrum. Props like Tilse, Ryan, Alexander and even Slipper are average to poor scrummagers - but in Australia we prefer mobility to scrummaging ability.

The biggest problem we had with our scrum last saturday was when Alexander came on. He simply cant prop at a high level. He repeatedly collapses scrums.

On another note I watched Paddy Ryan play for Uni against the Woods on Sunday and, I know he is coming back from injury, but he got pumped by Marty Plotskys who weighs a bout 100kg.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

From the front page of the blog (http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/5-killer-charts-from-the-june-internationals/):

Discuss:

CHART 5 – SCRUM INFRINGEMENTS

If the Wallabies have outperformed in a couple of dimensions, here’s one you won’t be surprised to see them flunking. More than one-third of all Australian scrums resulted in an infringement awarded against them. We on average conceded both more penalties (2.3) and more free kicks (1.8) than any other team in this analysis over the June period.
These are at levels that cost Tests — see what almost happened in the third against Wales — and will be painting a big red bullseye on the gold eight for oppositions and referees alike.
So there you have it — the series by the numbers.
Is it what you saw in numbers, or just more damned lies and statistics?

 

[What2040]

IF you watched the AB vs BOks on saturday night you may have noticed that there were very few resets and very few collapses. Teh scrum was a real contest. Why? Because unlike the situation in Australia they have proper props not converted backrowers.

Australian props are mainly Frankensteins i.e. manufactured by the ARU machine. My observation is that at State adn Aus level selection of props is largely on irrelevant statistics like sprints, benchpress, squats etc rather than if you can actually hold up a scrum. Props like Tilse, Ryan, Alexander and even Slipper are average to poor scrummagers - but in Australia we prefer mobility to scrummaging ability.

The biggest problem we had with our scrum last saturday was when Alexander came on. He simply cant prop at a high level. He repeatedly collapses scrums.

On another note I watched Paddy Ryan play for Uni against the Woods on Sunday and, I know he is coming back from injury, but he got pumped by Marty Plotskys who weighs a bout 100kg.

Mate don't just blame Alexander - Robbo has been poor and Kepu only average - not only at scrummie time but around the field.

 

[Sully]

Mate don't just blame Alexander - Robbo has been poor and Kepu only average - not only at scrummie time but around the field.

I think Kepu has been pretty good. Robbo has been average. Alexander has been poor.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Japan's national coach, Eddie Jones, openly advocates collapsing scrums when his pack is under pressure:

This is what Jones had to say in the press conference following the game against the French Barbarians (starts around 7:20):

"If I was a young forward out there today and the scrum was getting pushed back, the only way it would go, I'd collapse the scrum. How many scrums did we collapse today?"

Some might compliment him on his honesty, but given the potential danger involved it seems astonishing that a national coach could publicly advocate this and not be censured.
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[Hugh Jarse]

Not clever, indeed.

As a past Wobs Head coach (and front rower as well), does this admission suggest that this sort of thinking has permeated into our set piece culture and has now come part of the Wobs standard scrummaging toolkit (albeit unspoken). I hope not.

 

[BPC]

This is what Jones had to say in the press conference following the game against the French Barbarians (starts around 7:20):

"If I was a young forward out there today and the scrum was getting pushed back, the only way it would go, I'd collapse the scrum. How many scrums did we collapse today?"

Some might compliment him on his honesty, but given the potential danger involved it seems astonishing that a national coach could publicly advocate this and not be censured.
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Bill Young leaps immediately to mind.

 

[fatprop]

Bill Young leaps immediately to mind.

As does how Baxter followed orders, pack too low and if you miss the hit drop

 

[Bruce Ross]

This is a very serious issue which has seemingly escaped everyone's attention. A national coach advocating dangerous play capable of catastrophically disabling someone is outrageous.

 

[The Red Baron]

This is a very serious issue which has seemingly escaped everyone's attention. A national coach advocating dangerous play capable of catastrophically disabling someone is outrageous.

I don't think it has escaped our attention, to me it just confirmed what I have thought about him for a long time. Player welfare has never been high on Eddies' list of priorities. I totally agree with you though Bruce. It is absolutely outrageous.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I don't think it has escaped our attention, to me it just confirmed what I have thought about him for a long time. Player welfare has never been high on Eddies' list of priorities. I totally agree with you though Bruce. It is absolutely outrageous.

Sorry, Red, by "everyone" I meant everyone outside our membership and readership base. We were already on to it, but the presser has had wide coverage without anyone else commenting on this disturbing admission.
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[Hugh Jarse]

I have been conditioned to the mantra of Crouch, Touch, Pause, Engage" at scrum time.

The ITM cup are trialing "Crouch, Touch, Set". I think this 3 stage process is better from the results I have seen. Not sure what the scrum reset/scrum penalty counts reveal.

I do think "set" is a bit of a soft executive word for unleashing a collision of nearly 2 tonnes of human meat.

 

[DPK]

I have been conditioned to the mantra of Crouch, Touch, Pause, Engage" at scrum time.

The ITM cup are trialing "Crouch, Touch, Set". I think this 3 stage process is better from the results I have seen. Not sure what the scrum reset/scrum penalty counts reveal.

I do think "set" is a bit of a soft executive word for unleashing a collision of nearly 2 tonnes of human meat.

Anyone care to suggest a one-syllable word that accurately describes a scrum engagement?

"Crunch"?

 

[cyclopath]

Anyone care to suggest a one-syllable word that accurately describes a scrum engagement?

"Crunch"?

Oooomphhhhhhhh!