Scotland v Australia 12Nov16 Saturday

[Viking]

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In reality Cooper's error rate is lower then Foley's. Posters needs to start avoiding preconceived ideas.

Not that Cooper isn't prone to errors himself. But slightly better still then Foley.

 

[PeterK]

I think the structure used in attack suits Foley. It was very structured with a load of runners in motion on most back plays. I can't remember seeing Folau & TK run so many lines, sucking in defenders and creating space for others for quite a while.

Cooper is more prone to add lib; and that can workvery well, but sucessful Aus sides historically have had very, very structured attacks and Larkham seems to want that

Cooper would make even more of all the runners in motion than Foley.

Foley runs well and gets the backs on the front foot by running forwards first making the backs follow.

Coopers strength is looking for gap or hole runs and passing it right to them.

If there are so many runners in motion, so many options, Cooper with his vision is better able to decide which person should get it (i.e adlib as you say) and deliver it. The person he gives it to will probably be hitting a gap.

So this will be very effective for the first receiver however the rest of the players need to be on their toes and react to that and not play by numbers.

Foley does it per the structure. If the opposition have studied the structures and patterns well then this will be less effective.

Cooper method works better with multiple runners, decoys etc if the backline can react to where the play has gone and not rely on a specific call. So for each attacking shape they need a rule of where to go for each person who could receive the ball.

 

[Viking]

Pfitzy, I consider errors to be things like charge downs, intercepts, missed touch finders and handling errors (though Foley's greater frequency in this it's so marginal that I wouldn't consider it by itself).

What do you consider a lower error rate to mean?

Personally, I'll add missed tackles to that list too.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Yeah Seb that's basically all my comment was. I bit of a tongue in cheek dig at the pre-conceived notions.

What this season has shown as is that Foley is hardly immune from bad errors. And seemingly more likely to make them at nearly a rate of 1 per game on average.

Even this weekend in a game he was possibly MOTM (not sure who was officially announced) he still threw an intercept in about the 45th minute. The worst part of it was that it was a pass seemingly to nobody.

 

[PeterK]

The best thing about our lineout against Wales is it shows that if Poey is injured we can pick McMahon at 6 and feel confident (he's a lineout net positive compared to Poey anyway).

I agree this hasn't always looked like the best decision, but now it just seems like a no brainer.

Disagree strongly.

Wales had a weak lineout , lost their linout organiser, and Warburton a genuine lineout option.

So against weak lineouts sure.

Scotland has a very strong lineout, and play a kicking game. Remeber Highlanders Tahs? Eng, NZ nad SA exploiting Pooper because they have strong lineouts.

Have we learned nothing yet from our failures?

Even more so it will be in the wet. Time to focus on set piece, kicking, the breakdown and not running the ball.

 

[Joe Blow]

It would be wise for Cheika to start both Foley and Phipps again this week with a view to introducing Cooper and Genia early in the second half if all is going well. We need to build their(Foley and Phipps) combination with Hodge and TK leading into the Ireland and England games. Foley also seems to have a better combo with Folau.
Foley was much more direct than Cooper. His first movement was always forward towards the line and he ran himself quite a lot which really kept the defense hanging off him. QCs first movement was mostly sideways towards his outside support and he only held the ball himself when in a compromised position, which in itself is a revelation compared to what he used to do in that situation.
Its a great thing for us to have both sets of halves available but I reckon the Tah boys have earned the right to start for now.

 

[barbarian]

Are people seriously suggesting changing our team this week?

It would be madness. Absolute madness. Our backline was humming, our forward runners were thundering over the gainline with every touch.

Other than injury enforced changes, I would happily play that side against all comers this tour.
.

 

[PeterK]

There is no doubt in my mind Cheika will start Foley and Cooper on the bench.
Reward 2 strong games I understand that.

If I disregard that and consider the opposition and the wet conditions it is more interesting.

Normally if it was wet I would just choose QC (Quade Cooper) over Foley because he has a better kicking game.

However Foley really did some very good short tactical kicking against Wales and Brynes seems to have improved that area. His long kicking game is still non existant but they can rely on Hodge.

QC (Quade Cooper)'s long passing game is not that useful in the wet because you don't want that when the ball is like soap.

Foley's running game near the fringes and keeping passing short and players moving forward is better suited.

However QC (Quade Cooper) makes less errors per game than Foley.

Overall it is now very close. So I stick with the inform incumbent.

 

[Highlander35]

Scotland has a very strong lineout, and play a kicking game.

Hehehe. Kicking points yes. Field kicking, not so much, certainly much less than a France or an Italy.

 

[PeterK]

Are people seriously suggesting changing our team this week?

It would be madness. Absolute madness. Our backline was humming, our forward runners were thundering over the gainline with every touch.

Other than injury enforced changes, I would happily play that side against all comers this tour.
.

It is not madness. The previous starting team has a serious lineout deficiency and the game will be in the wet.

Minimum change is Fardy at 6.

Since it is wet I would retain Pocock at 7 and Hooper to bench.

Hooper needs rest and rotation anyway.

Genia has been in better form than Phipps but sure start Phipps and take him off as soon as his passing is erratic.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Not really Baa Baa. Just questioning the pre-conceived notions.

I'm not sure though I'm not going to take a win against a depleted and poorly performing Wales team as indication that everything is going great. Rolling Argentina on 35% possession didn't stop changing the backline for the NZ game after all.

And Joe, no. Foley's first movement was not "always" forwards towards the line. Well unless you mean it was less than 90 degrees to the line in which case basically every player does that.

For the majority of the game Foley was direct. But it's no coincidence that coincided with front foot ball enabling time and space to attack direct.

But when that front foot ball was halted, less direct attack crept in. But again for the same reason I don't give him plenty of credit for directness, I'm not criticizing him here for lack of it. It's merely a function of the time and space he has. When he loses it he needs to drift, and stay deeper to not die with the ball.

When he has it. He is direct.

When he doesn't have it. He isn't direct.

This is not unique to Foley. This is basically every 10 in the world.

 

[PeterK]

Hehehe. Kicking points yes. Field kicking, not so much, certainly much less than a France or an Italy.

They do in the wet.

Laidlaw a lot of box kicks that are contested and they will kick for the line deep in australia's half.

This link shows an interactive that you can look at where all the lineouts were.
Australia's in their half with most in the 22, scotlands around the halfway mark. So Scotland kick it deep, australia kick it back to halfway, rinse and repeat.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...d-cup-2015-australia-vs-scotland--match-stats

 

[Braveheart81]

Hooper needs rest and rotation anyway.

Not really sure about that. He's probably the last person that needs to be rested. His ability to stay fresh and healthy through a lot of rugby is just about unrivalled in the team.

Rest and rotation certainly has to be on a player by player basis. Some guys need breaks far more often to avoid the sort of injuries that come with being overplayed.

The Wallabies have played twice in the last month. Hooper should be completely fresh.

 

[Viking]

His long kicking game is still non existant but they can rely on Hodge.

I have my doubts about this. This required Hodge to be in a kicking position -and be in that position very quickly. Works easily enough off set-peice but what about in general play. Sure he is closer to the action at 12, but Foley is still the primary pivot and will no doubt be put in a position where he needs to kick - most likely under pressure - think turnover ball in our own half.

 

[Train Without a Station]

BH I agree with that.

The other factor is doesn't the CBA limit the players to 30 matches in a calendar year?

As the Waratahs didn't make the final he only played 15 Super Rugby games and with 15 tests this year he will play a max of 30.

That's pretty high but coming off the back of a lighter load in 2015 with only 12 tests in total and no EOYT I don't see any reason why he needs to be rested.

Perhaps rotation and playing McMahon or Pocock may be the right option, but it's not needed for Hooper's longevity really.

 

[Viking]

Not really sure about that. He's probably the last person that needs to be rested. His ability to stay fresh and healthy through a lot of rugby is just about unrivalled in the team.

Rest and rotation certainly has to be on a player by player basis. Some guys need breaks far more often to avoid the sort of injuries that come with being overplayed.

The Wallabies have played twice in the last month. Hooper should be completely fresh.

But will be still be fresh by the time we get to Ireland and then England?

Plus I think he is the easiest person to rotate given we have Poey and McMahon as replacements. Not a lot of risk resting him.

 

[Highlander35]

They do in the wet.

Laidlaw a lot of box kicks that are contested and they will kick for the line deep in australia's half.

This link shows an interactive that you can look at where all the lineouts were.
Australia's in their half with most in the 22, scotlands around the halfway mark. So Scotland kick it deep, australia kick it back to halfway, rinse and repeat.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...d-cup-2015-australia-vs-scotland--match-stats

Then that's obviously a point of difference.

Kicking game to me is the type of 10 (or even 9) man rugby played by French, English and South African teams designed as playing not to lose rather than to win, usually demonstrated by less talented squads.

Kicking for territory in difficult conditions with a couple of quality kickers in the side says Intelligent game, not kicking game. (Something a lot of teams in Australia don't seem to do well from my perspective at any level!)

 

[PeterK]

Additionally IMO in a wet game Pocock adds more value than Hooper.

 

[Braveheart81]

But will be still be fresh by the time we get to Ireland and then England?

Plus I think he is the easiest person to rotate given we have Poey and McMahon as replacements. Not a lot of risk resting him.

Yes. Everything about his playing history suggests that 5 games in 5 weeks is fine for him. Particularly with a couple of weekends off in the leadup.

Arnold and Pocock would seem to be the two forwards most prone to breaking down/suffering an injury on a regular basis (without reviewing any stats).

 

[Gnostic]

Genia does have a better running game but he also has a better pass, has a better rugby game and doesn't give away stupid penalties.



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And is about half speed of Phipps. I also disagree about the better pass, at the start of games Phipps is as good he just fades after 50.