Schoolboy Rugby needs a review?

[CTPE]

Came across this today and whilst it's a couple of months old there are some good points made in the blog. IS will no doubt have things to add to it. Interesting where Victoria has gone with the administration of schoolboy rugby.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/10/31/schoolboy-rugby-needs-a-review/

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Came across this today and whilst it's a couple of months old there are some good points made in the blog. IS will no doubt have things to add to it. Interesting where Victoria has gone with the administration of schoolboy rugby.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/10/31/schoolboy-rugby-needs-a-review/

Geez I'm feeling pressured to respond.
Far more thoughtful debate on GGR has uncovered the issues which this author overlooks.

The bit that sticks out for me:

representing a goal of developing players who will be prepared for when they enter the adult world of elite senior rugby

It is not the function of any comprehensive school to provide the foot soliders for a professional sport.

If the NZ system is so wonderful how come we beat them at schools level but then get nowhere near them at U20's?

What this suggests is that the quality of the school rugby system is a poor predictor of senior success.
The educative benefit of rugby played in a school environment should never be confused with the demand that a national professional team (or even provincial professional teams) achieve success.
They are completely different issues and the author seems not to comprehend that fact.
It is very dangerous, in my opinion, to place professional expectations on school aged children playing in a school based sporting competition.

 

[barbarian]

The author of that Roar piece is a bit loony. He came onto one of our front page articles about the GPS and tried to explain his idea in the comments section. He persisted with it despite being told by a few current students (and plenty of others) that it just wouldn't fly, and his idea that the GPS system is 'outdated' is nonsense.

It doesn't mean that he doesn't make one or two good points, but the large majority of that argument is ill-informed junk in my opinion.
.

 

[Quick Hands]

It's a strange assumption that schools exist to provide cannon fodder for professional sport. I always thought that they existed for the purpose of education and that sport and other activities such as music and drama were to develop the mind and body in other aspects of life, promote values, comradship etc.

Also a strange notion that because something is old it is out of date. Wimbledon's been going for a while and part of its strength is its tradition.

If schools in each of the association's really wanted change, it would happen. For example, if any GPS school thought that it was too old or outdated, they would simply leave and join ISA. The idea that some "big brother" should come in and tell people who they should play and what organisation they should be in is a bit strange. Freedom of association still exists in Australia.

Another thing that some rugby people need to understand that there is more to sport than rugby. Each of these associations play a variety of games against each other and rugby is only part of the picture. The whole of the GPS, CAS or ISA do not revolve around rugby.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It's a strange assumption that schools exist to provide cannon fodder for professional sport. I always thought that they existed for the purpose of education and that sport and other activities such as music and drama were to develop the mind and body in other aspects of life, promote values, comradship etc.

Also a strange notion that because something is old it is out of date. Wimbledon's been going for a while and part of its strength is its tradition.

If schools in each of the association's really wanted change, it would happen. For example, if any GPS school thought that it was too old or outdated, they would simply leave and join ISA. The idea that some "big brother" should come in and tell people who they should play and what organisation they should be in is a bit strange. Freedom of association still exists in Australia.

Another thing that some rugby people need to understand that there is more to sport than rugby. Each of these associations play a variety of games against each other and rugby is only part of the picture. The whole of the GPS, CAS or ISA do not revolve around rugby.

This is all true and your points are well made.
Thats my view as a parent.
My view as a rugby supporter is that the present ad hoc arrangements do not get the most out of the rugby playing potential of this country.
That, however, is not any school's or even the Australian Schools Rugby Union's responsibility.
he is a confused bloke.

 

[Quick Hands]

This is all true and your points are well made.
Thats my view as a parent.
My view as a rugby supporter is that the present ad hoc arrangements do not get the most out of the rugby playing potential of this country.
That, however, is not any school's or even the Australian Schools Rugby Union's responsibility.
he is a confused bloke.

Totally agree. The role of the AAGPS is to provide a structure for member schools to play rugby (and other games). As far as I can see, they've done an excellent job in that role over the past century or more. Same goes for CAS and ISA.

As we both agree on (I think), the only reason that the school associations have such an impact is that they have filled a vacuum left by NSWRU and ARU in terms of player development.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Anyone know the outcomes of the big schools rugby think tank held in Brisvegas last November?

Aust Jnr RU are also apparently out to do something strategic, although exactly what is a little unclear.

 

[Man on the hill]

blah blah blah - not gonna happen

 

[RugbyTears]

We all agree the schoolboy comp in Sydney is a bit haphazd. A lot of alternatives been bantered about - but many suggestions seem to look at the problem as simpily addressing a 1st XV fixture list. It is not. Every rugby school will tell you it is about getting every kid a game in a safe & competitive environment. What is the Riverview Sportsmaster going to do with 75% of his teams when Riverview plays Aloys for example ? One GPS school alone has as many players as an entire zone of Village rugby clubs. All I am saying is the solution is not as simple as getting a street directory and draw a line from Bondi to Penrith. Sure, there is some truth in some traditionalists not wanting to change but there is also a hell lot of very progressive minded sportsmasters who recognise the problem & want to do something about it. If we accept one of the objectives of a comp is to ensure every player from each club/school gets a game very week, why would GPS wants to break up their comp unless a new school can field over 32 teams ?

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... It is very dangerous, in my opinion, to place professional expectations on school aged children playing in a school based sporting competition.

Most agree with you but historically (and on a global scale) it has always been the case! Our unique culture in Australia has to a certain extent kept the wolves of professional sport at bay but alas even this is now changing!

I have said it these posts a millions times; It is amazing how many junior prodigies believe they are going to go on to become superstars and take the focus of their education, which of course is the end game as far as schooling is concerned!

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... ... ... ... As we both agree on (I think), the only reason that the school associations have such an impact is that they have filled a vacuum left by NSWRU and ARU in terms of player development.

To quote that oft cited line from the 'Untouchables';

"Here endeth the lesson!"

 

[Runner]

Many valid points as usual from our learned colleagues.
I would like to just add that to raise the prfoile of schoolboy rugby, as has been mentioned in other forums here, might be to start to promote the one integrated competition that exists. Namely the Waratah Shield. The GF played last year before a small crowd mid week, little publicity, a small TV package after the match. With over 100 teams playing form all associations etc seems an area where the very hard working guys running it could use assistance for the rugby administarators.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Many valid points as usual from our learned colleagues.
I would like to just add that to raise the prfoile of schoolboy rugby, as has been mentioned in other forums here, might be to start to promote the one integrated competition that exists. Namely the Waratah Shield. The GF played last year before a small crowd mid week, little publicity, a small TV package after the match. With over 100 teams playing form all associations etc seems an area where the very hard working guys running it could use assistance for the rugby administarators.

Well, that is, itself, a history of the attitudes of the Sydney private schools towards open competitions.

 

[Man on the hill]

If you're ever going to stop pedalling in circles, you need a clear differential. School AGE Rugby & School BOY Rugby; oil & water, they are not the same thing! Yes they target the same resources but they move in their own circles. Rugby tears suggest that the schoolboy comp is haphazard - for GPS, CAS & ISA it is far from haphazard - it is an integral part of their curriculum. It is well managed. SJRU competitions are also well organised.

Other sports (notably cricket) survive with all but an identical parallel universe structure.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Other sports (notably cricket) survive with all but an identical parallel universe structure.

Only because CA and CNSW don't rely on the schools to produce their Sheffield Shield and Test match players.
Ed Cowan was the first private school boy since Phil Emery to make an Oz test team - and Emery was the first for years.
Also CNSW has a demanding (i.e. interferes with playing all other sport seriously) Emerging Blues program for ages from about 11 to 18.
Howl me down, but no kid with the ability and the desire to play test cricket will get there playing for his school.

 

[Brian Westlake]

Only because CA and CNSW don't rely on the schools to produce their Sheffield Shield and Test match players.
Ed Cowan was the first private school boy since Phil Emery to make an Oz test team - and Emery was the first for years.
Also CNSW has a demanding (i.e. interferes with playing all other sport seriously) Emerging Blues program for ages from about 11 to 18.
Howl me down, but no kid with the ability and the desire to play test cricket will get there playing for his school.

Lord knows I would love to be able to howl you down, but, instead agree with you wholeheartedly. The instance last year of young JJ Coutts from Scots NOT being allowed to play Rugby because of NSW Cricket commitments, telling him not to play, beggars belief. CNSW have put no monetary input into the young man. As at this stage, EVERYTHING is paid for by the parent(s) as CNSW will forward invoices for kit, training camps etc. To then tell a young guy to not play what may be his preferred sport more than dumbfounds me.
This is how CA and CNSW get their players around the school issue. Also there are sports high schools that quite a few of these lads attend for coaching. But on the by and whole, they use bully boy tactics by threatening that the young man will be cut from the emerging blues program if he chooses to play another chosen sport. At this moment in time CA has the Elyse Perry dilemma happening.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Brian Westlake: I will give the ARU a pat on the back in this department - they encourage the kids to play their other sports from what I hear.

 

[forwards4ever]

We all agree the schoolboy comp in Sydney is a bit haphazd. A lot of alternatives been bantered about - but many suggestions seem to look at the problem as simpily addressing a 1st XV fixture list. It is not. Every rugby school will tell you it is about getting every kid a game in a safe & competitive environment. What is the Riverview Sportsmaster going to do with 75% of his teams when Riverview plays Aloys for example ? One GPS school alone has as many players as an entire zone of Village rugby clubs. All I am saying is the solution is not as simple as getting a street directory and draw a line from Bondi to Penrith. Sure, there is some truth in some traditionalists not wanting to change but there is also a hell lot of very progressive minded sportsmasters who recognise the problem & want to do something about it. If we accept one of the objectives of a comp is to ensure every player from each club/school gets a game very week, why would GPS wants to break up their comp unless a new school can field over 32 teams ?

 

[forwards4ever]

We all agree the schoolboy comp in Sydney is a bit haphazd. A lot of alternatives been bantered about - but many suggestions seem to look at the problem as simpily addressing a 1st XV fixture list. It is not. Every rugby school will tell you it is about getting every kid a game in a safe & competitive environment. What is the Riverview Sportsmaster going to do with 75% of his teams when Riverview plays Aloys for example ? One GPS school alone has as many players as an entire zone of Village rugby clubs. All I am saying is the solution is not as simple as getting a street directory and draw a line from Bondi to Penrith. Sure, there is some truth in some traditionalists not wanting to change but there is also a hell lot of very progressive minded sportsmasters who recognise the problem & want to do something about it. If we accept one of the objectives of a comp is to ensure every player from each club/school gets a game very week, why would GPS wants to break up their comp unless a new school can field over 32 teams ?

There are schools that could do this! Oakhill in ISA, Knox in CAS. I would suggest the traditionalists open their minds and break down the walls that are GPS, CAS & ISA and make 4 or 5 divisions of similiarly sized and skilled schools. School boy rugby in NSW could only be improved if this were done!

 

[Newbie]

Brian Westlake: I will give the ARU a pat on the back in this department - they encourage the kids to play their other sports from what I hear.

Indeed they do!