School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[wamberal]

Yes, Kurtley's uncle may've wanted him to develop his undoubted sporting potential, and he was certainly aware of the opportunity at Joeys with its indigenous education commitment, but a skinny lad starting in year 7 has a lot of hurdles to clear before he makes the Ones.

This particular skinny lad cleared the hurdles pretty quickly, didn't he? First XV at 15?

I do not have an opinion one way or the other about sporting scholarships at GPS schools, although I do wonder why grown men (and women, apparently) care so much about schoolboy sport. I went to a pretty good state high school, still stay in touch with a bunch of old boys, but school sport is of no interest to me, or any of my former classmates.

 

[southsider]

Having known Pualiasi and Sipper's father for some 40 years I can confirm he was in a position to afford to send his third and fourth sons to Joeys, but not one and two. Sipper started at Endeavour Sports HS and went to Joeys after Pauliasi left; his father acknowledged his sporting ability and felt Sipper would get the best chance to develop it at Joeys. BTW, the Taumoepeau boys' parents paid full freight.

Beale and Betham were very good junior league players, no doubt about that; Betham's skills were noted by the scouts at Souths Juniors and he could've got a good start there. But to infer Joeys "headhunted" them to bolster the First XV ranks suggests there was some sort of divine providence guiding their decision-making for boys entering year 7. Yes, Kurtley's uncle may've wanted him to develop his undoubted sporting potential, and he was certainly aware of the opportunity at Joeys with its indigenous education commitment, but a skinny lad starting in year 7 has a lot of hurdles to clear before he makes the Ones.

well cant argue with you about the taumoepeau boys then lol my mistake! But ido have a problem with th bit highlighted. What other reason do you give scholarships to young gifted athletes then? when was the last time you heard of a scholarship kid not making the 1st xv? Yes theres hurdles to overcome but if your on scholarship it means your a gifted athlete and that coupled with training and the added attention coaches give you its pretty save to say that their grooming you for a place in the 1st's someday

 

[lincoln]

Beale and Betham were very good junior league players, no doubt about that; Betham's skills were noted by the scouts at Souths Juniors and he could've got a good start there. But to infer Joeys "headhunted" them to bolster the First XV ranks suggests there was some sort of divine providence guiding their decision-making for boys entering year 7. Yes, Kurtley's uncle may've wanted him to develop his undoubted sporting potential, and he was certainly aware of the opportunity at Joeys with its indigenous education commitment, but a skinny lad starting in year 7 has a lot of hurdles to clear before he makes the Ones.

I saw him play at that time. He was anything but a skinny kid in the U13s - was a very tall and dominant player - had 1sts written all over him.

 

[CTPE]

A
As per Random 2 #1248. You seem to really have a vendetta here CTPE?
Why?

Brian I'm disappointed on two counts - firstly that it took you so long to get into this part of the debate and secondly the paranoid nature of your comment.

The bottom line is that both Joeys and Riverview have as many talented rugby playing boys arriving at the schools post year 7 as do Newington, Kings and Scots, yet they all seem to be explained away (even those arriving in years 10 and 11) as younger siblings of previous students or members of the Joeys or View "families" and none of them are of course on any form of fee assistance.

I could go through recent teams on a player by player basis and note where they were before arriving at Joeys or View and when they arrived but I don't regard that as appropriate on a public forum. I'm even happy to accept that many of them arrive on the basis of Lindomer's excellent comments above at post #1260 but what pisses me off is the "we are totally sinless when it comes to sports scholarships" epistle espoused by Joeys and View posters on this forum.

 

[CTPE]

Starting with one of the lads who was approched by TKS?
Please CTPE, stop defending the indefendable.

Brian as for the indefensible (rather rather than the indefendable) I have a close friend who is both a former Joeys parent and a quite successful businessperson who told me that when their son was at the school they were asked to make a very sizable contribution towards ensuring that Joeys tradition of rugby success continued and they were left in no doubt how the money would be spent.

 

[CTPE]

CTPE, there's been an attitude among many parents of talented rugby juniors to treat these institutions as "rugby finishing schools". The northern beaches, north shore and the greater north-west of Sydney have traditionally been strong rugby areas (Eastwood have, what, seven feeder village clubs, and Wahroonga Tigers is the biggest junior club in Australia). Parents, mostly fathers, want their little champion to go as far as he can in Dad's favourite sport, and to this end the parents make enquiries at King's, Joeys, Knox, Barker, Scots, Newington, wherever, when young Sam/Mark/Phil makes the district under 14/15 rep side. In my experience the vast majority of late entries in these circumstances pay full freight. There's also another imperative in these late enrolments: a helluva lot of parents can't afford to pay private school fees for six years, hence the couple of boys in Joeys Ones last year who had older brothers precede them. Apart from the affordabilty issue there are legions of mothers out there who are reluctant to send little Sam/Mark/Phil off to boarding school aged 12.

A specific example: when my young fella started at one of these institutions two blokes from my year also had their sons commence at the same time, but in year 11. One couldn't afford six years and the other's mother wanted him at home until he was 16; neither of these boys made the First XV. There are many reasons why good rugby players appear in years 10 and 11 apart from blatant poaching.

Excellent statement Lindommer but one that can equally apply to all GPS schools. I'll end my comments by again reiterating gpsoldboy's comment in regards to GPS rugby scholarhips:

I think that your proposition only applies in strict terms to Grammar, High and probably Shore. I believe that all other GPS schools, including Riverview and Joeys, recruit rugby players but some just do it more subtly and on a lesser scale than others.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Brian as for the indefensible (rather rather than the indefendable) I have a close friend who is both a former Joeys parent and a quite successful businessperson who told me that when their son was at the school they were asked to make a very sizable contribution towards ensuring that Joeys tradition of rugby success continued and they were left in no doubt how the money would be spent.

I gather from recent performances he declined to contribute
;-)


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[CTPE]

I gather from recent performances he declined to contribute
;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Correct.

 

[Brian Westlake]

I gather from recent performances he declined to contribute
;-)


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No, IS, I have been busy.

First off, apologies for bad grammer. It is indefensible. I have never stated " to being totally sinless" but to go the Armstrong defence so succinctly put in previous post. C'mon CTPE, you know and I know that it has occurred in the past, But, to try and divert attention to the fact that it still happening at at least three schools ACTIVELY. It was posted that the kids talk. They do. The parents do too... A lot. It is interesting standing back, listening to the amount of kids that are at SIC and SJC on scholarships. If we are to believe your thoughts, the entire NSW schoolboys from these 2 schools are on a freebie.
As to sizable contributions I am not open to being approached like this because I am not rich. Sorry on that count, but if my Mum leaves me the farm, I am sure I would onvest in Schoolboy rugby.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

but if my Mum leaves me the farm, I am sure I would onvest in Schoolboy rugby.

You better hope your mum doesn't read GGR - if she reads that you'll be cut out of the will!

 

[Brian Westlake]

Invest*

 

[Brian Westlake]

You better hope your mum doesn't read GGR - if she reads that you'll be cut out of the will!

Her Grandson just taught her how to use email and to do internet banking. She is pretty chuffed with herself

 

[I like to watch]

That's good. can you PM her email address, I know a Nigerian Prince that has a sensational business proposition for her.
Even better that she has internet banking sorted,it will save her heaps of time!

 

[providence]

Seems to be plenty of banter backwards and forwards, accusations both ways depending on one's persuasions re scholarships.

Perhaps we should put these rugby scholarships in a different context;

Our current national teams in pretty much every sport I can think of (naturally I am lining myself up here) are at rock bottom certainly from a past 15 - 20 year perspective. We still get the occasional good result in any sport but think Olympics, Cricket, Union, Football, Swimming etc.....

The AIS was pretty much the first / second of it's kind when set up, a brilliant idea but has been super seeded overseas. Here we are debating Rugby Scholarships.

I would have thought the real issue is these 'proud GPS schools' need to issue MANY more scholarships, not less....for the National interest! How much talent never gets recognized?

Alternatively we can continue to be proud old boys watching GPS graduates getting smashed by more competent and dedicated teams from countries where sport is more professional.

As Australians we are often accused of being 'one eyed' and insular, often racist, hence my dislike for the use of the word 'import' on this site. Even the 'Rector uses this horrific word. Time perhaps to direct the concept of 'School Sporting Scholarships' as per the title of this thread more towards the national interest of nurturing brilliant talent rather than old boys trying one upmanship on each other.

Lets be 100% clear, over the past 30 years all of these GPS schools at one time or another have offered sporting scholarships.

 

[lincoln]

Seems to be plenty of banter backwards and forwards, accusations both ways depending on one's persuasions re scholarships.

Perhaps we should put these rugby scholarships in a different context;

Our current national teams in pretty much every sport I can think of (naturally I am lining myself up here) are at rock bottom certainly from a past 15 - 20 year perspective. We still get the occasional good result in any sport but think Olympics, Cricket, Union, Football, Swimming etc...

The AIS was pretty much the first / second of it's kind when set up, a brilliant idea but has been super seeded overseas. Here we are debating Rugby Scholarships.

I would have thought the real issue is these 'proud GPS schools' need to issue MANY more scholarships, not less..for the National interest! How much talent never gets recognized?

Alternatively we can continue to be proud old boys watching GPS graduates getting smashed by more competent and dedicated teams from countries where sport is more professional.

As Australians we are often accused of being 'one eyed' and insular, often racist, hence my dislike for the use of the word 'import' on this site. Even the 'Rector uses this horrific word. Time perhaps to direct the concept of 'School Sporting Scholarships' as per the title of this thread more towards the national interest of nurturing brilliant talent rather than old boys trying one upmanship on each other.

Lets be 100% clear, over the past 30 years all of these GPS schools at one time or another have offered sporting scholarships.

P, just get the GPS heads to change their charter and bring it on - the sleeping giant will prevail!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Lets be 100% clear, over the past 30 years all of these GPS schools at one time or another have offered sporting scholarships.

Nope - not all: 2 (SGS, SBHS) have definitely not and i think a 3rd (SCEGS) has not. I'm on the fence re SIC and SJC, tending to a no vote, and know the other 3 have.
As for the rest of what you have to say you are preaching to the converted.
My interest in denouncing the scholarship givers is to weaken the AAGPS comp to a point at which the ARU realises that it cannot rely on that comp (and interstate equivalents) to provide the players it needs for the 5 s15 franchises and the Wallabies.

That realisation may lead to a more open and inclusive game in which we get access to the best talent irrespective of their parent's income or where they happened to jag a scholarship.

It would lead to more and stronger teams - who would play more hard games with a corresponding lift in competitiveness by having been honed in the contest. This is an imperative for Australian rugby: the private schools demographic is changing rapidly - the emphasis on rugby, rowing and cricket is not present in the new demographic to the extent it once was.

Rowing copes by a successful talent targetting program that has little to do with the private schools.
Everyone everywhere who wants to play cricket can.
If you pay $30k p.a. for 6 years you can get 10 games of rugby in.

 

[angrydog]

Nope - not all: 2 (SGS, SBHS) have definitely not and i think a 3rd (SCEGS) has not. I'm on the fence re SIC and SJC, tending to a no vote, and know the other 3 have.
As for the rest of what you have to say you are preaching to the converted.
My interest in denouncing the scholarship givers is to weaken the AAGPS comp to a point at which the ARU realises that it cannot rely on that comp (and interstate equivalents) to provide the players it needs for the 5 s15 franchises and the Wallabies.

That realisation may lead to a more open and inclusive game in which we get access to the best talent irrespective of their parent's income or where they happened to jag a scholarship.

It would lead to more and stronger teams - who would play more hard games with a corresponding lift in competitiveness by having been honed in the contest. This is an imperative for Australian rugby: the private schools demographic is changing rapidly - the emphasis on rugby, rowing and cricket is not present in the new demographic to the extent it once was.

Rowing copes by a successful talent targetting program that has little to do with the private schools.
Everyone everywhere who wants to play cricket can.
If you pay $30k p.a. for 6 years you can get 10 games of rugby in.

IS, we have had our disagreements but I totaly agree with you and your comments above. The key to producing better professional footballers is to have greater competition across the board rather than a concentration of talent across 3-4 teams in one comp at the lower tiers and schools level.

 

[Quick Hands]

Rowing copes by a successful talent targetting program that has little to do with the private schools.
Everyone everywhere who wants to play cricket can.
If you pay $30k p.a. for 6 years you can get 10 games of rugby in.

So true. When the ARU, NSWRU eventually take control of their own destiny and have a comprehensive development structure, then the GPS, CAS and other associations will go back to what they should be doing and play inter-school matches.

I can't think of any other sport in Australia which stands back and allows the school systems to do the development. The schools should be the icing and not the cake.

 

[Quick Hands]

Lets be 100% clear, over the past 30 years all of these GPS schools at one time or another have offered sporting scholarships.

I'm open to being convinced one way or another about Riverview and Joeys, but I can't really accept that High, Grammar and Shore have.

How do you have a sporting scholarship at High when there aren't even any fees?

The administration at Grammar seems to have been largely indifferent to sport for at least 30 years, if not longer, so that stretches the imagination a little.

Shore are under such enrolment pressure that sons and grandsons of old boys can't get in if they haven't registered before the boy's 1st birthday. Even it they wanted to do it, there would be a riot from the old boy fraternity who can't get their sons in despite being potential full paying customers if they did.

 

[CTPE]

No, IS, I have been busy.

First off, apologies for bad grammer. It is indefensible. I have never stated " to being totally sinless" but to go the Armstrong defence so succinctly put in previous post. C'mon CTPE, you know and I know that it has occurred in the past, But, to try and divert attention to the fact that it still happening at at least three schools ACTIVELY. It was posted that the kids talk. They do. The parents do too. A lot. It is interesting standing back, listening to the amount of kids that are at SIC and SJC on scholarships. If we are to believe your thoughts, the entire NSW schoolboys from these 2 schools are on a freebie.
As to sizable contributions I am not open to being approached like this because I am not rich. Sorry on that count, but if my Mum leaves me the farm, I am sure I would onvest in Schoolboy rugby.

Brian, with great respect, if you read my posts on this issue you will note that I have not once denied the assertion that certain GPS schools chase rugby talent - all I have sought to show is that this pursuit of talent isn't just limited to the the schools most accused of it. As regards the sizable contributions, the request made to my Joeys friend was made within the last 2 years.