School sporting scholarships/recruitment
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Black & White
Vay Wilson (31)
Hello Inside Shoulder
I cannot dispute your desire for an equal playing field. The reality is that Pathways has its origins in a quest for social justice and educational opportunities, for kids in Western Sydney. Particularly, those doing HSC subjects and TAFE Courses. It was felt that such students from socially disadvantaged backgrounds, would cope better over an extended period of time.
However, as you have pointed out a certain school has taken advantage of the situation for its own ends. So its not Pathways but rather the abuse of the Pathways.
However, attempts at reform are a political minefield. The media, particularly those of the left, will react with emotional accusations that people such as ourselves are social elitists of privilege backgrounds. Having attended elite and rich private schools. That we seek to deny opportunities to children of lower socio/ economic backgrounds and instead seek to reinforce privilege. That is largely why the Liberal Party will not touch it and why the Labor Party will support its continued existence.
I think a more covert and diplomatic manner is to focus upon not Pathways but the excesses of any School. Scots have form as last year if my memory is correct, they sought to gain places ahead of the line through payments at Sydney University.
In this regard Pathways needs reform, as kids from Western Sydney whom I once taught have a different value system from those of the Eastern Suburbs and the North Shore. Their's is a more practical/physical obtainment and TAFE serves them well in this regard.
Unfortunately, our politicians and educational bureaucrats have other greater priorities, such as getting elected and not "Rocking the Boat". Also saying out of the Media spotlight. As any changes to Pathways, if handled badly or misunderstood represent a political time- bomb. So I don't expect any reform soon.
Anyway, I have enjoyed responding to your concerns and I hope Sydney Grammar have a successful and rewarding year.
Regards
Black & White
I cannot dispute your desire for an equal playing field. The reality is that Pathways has its origins in a quest for social justice and educational opportunities, for kids in Western Sydney. Particularly, those doing HSC subjects and TAFE Courses. It was felt that such students from socially disadvantaged backgrounds, would cope better over an extended period of time.
However, as you have pointed out a certain school has taken advantage of the situation for its own ends. So its not Pathways but rather the abuse of the Pathways.
However, attempts at reform are a political minefield. The media, particularly those of the left, will react with emotional accusations that people such as ourselves are social elitists of privilege backgrounds. Having attended elite and rich private schools. That we seek to deny opportunities to children of lower socio/ economic backgrounds and instead seek to reinforce privilege. That is largely why the Liberal Party will not touch it and why the Labor Party will support its continued existence.
I think a more covert and diplomatic manner is to focus upon not Pathways but the excesses of any School. Scots have form as last year if my memory is correct, they sought to gain places ahead of the line through payments at Sydney University.
In this regard Pathways needs reform, as kids from Western Sydney whom I once taught have a different value system from those of the Eastern Suburbs and the North Shore. Their's is a more practical/physical obtainment and TAFE serves them well in this regard.
Unfortunately, our politicians and educational bureaucrats have other greater priorities, such as getting elected and not "Rocking the Boat". Also saying out of the Media spotlight. As any changes to Pathways, if handled badly or misunderstood represent a political time- bomb. So I don't expect any reform soon.
Anyway, I have enjoyed responding to your concerns and I hope Sydney Grammar have a successful and rewarding year.
Regards
Black & White
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
Wow. And here I was labouring under the delusion a student had to complete the Preliminary course first. Or do they do that in Year 10?
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Well, all I know is that I don't want anyone operating on me who can't do their HSC in one year.......
Its ok...Scots have a plan for their students who don't want to worry about that pesky HSC.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/scot...y-university-without-hsc-20150403-1medae.html
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Would you be happy to be operated on by a surgeon who had failed their Fellowship exam the first time around?
A number of my specialist medico acquaintances have had to sit their Specialist exams more than once. Despite being "failures", they seem to have rather good patient outcomes. I'm not too sure that the College of Surgeons was too worried about their HSC mark, or ATAR, when they applied for entry.
Does the NSW Bar Association consider the candidates ATAR score when assessing the candidates who apply for entry to the Bar?
A number of my specialist medico acquaintances have had to sit their Specialist exams more than once. Despite being "failures", they seem to have rather good patient outcomes. I'm not too sure that the College of Surgeons was too worried about their HSC mark, or ATAR, when they applied for entry.
Does the NSW Bar Association consider the candidates ATAR score when assessing the candidates who apply for entry to the Bar?
No, but the medical school might have been.
In any case, sitting a Surgical Fellowship exam is about as anti-pathways as it can be. Working 60-70 hours a week and studying another 30 or so for 6-12 months. Well, it was when I did it. Once.
The failure rate then was about 40% or higher, not surprisingly. Now it's 95% or so in most specialties, a combo of "safe working hours" and Govt pressure to qualify more and more specialists to theoretically treat more people; sadly without actual funding for all that treatment it meets a roadblock. But I digress.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
No the bar is only interested in keeping Wendy Bacon and Kate Wentworth out.
Law firms and Chambers sure look at ATARS but.
Not in straight
Vay Wilson (31)
@Joker, do you know any of the boys who obtained admission through this program? How many were elite sportsman? How many played first 15?
Two and one was an elite cricket player. Both were accepted in 2014 as part of the pilot program. I was told that his parents believed his studies were below what was expected due to the load of cricket he participated in. They were obviously happy (and had the financial means) to pay for his entry. The other boy I have no details on. This information comes from a TSC parent who had a son in the 2014 class.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Not really. The original purpose of pathways was for elite athletes at international level who were school age to train for the Olympics etc, but still get their HSC. It was never meant for schools to increase their training programmes to elite professional levels so that their own students didn't have enough time to study.
EDIT: And still seems to be the real purpose.
3. HSC pathways
Most students study for the Higher School Certificate over two years during Years 11 and 12. However, HSC pathways offer a more flexible program if you wish to combine your studies with employment or other commitments, such as family care or elite sporting or cultural pursuits. https://studentsonline.bostes.nsw.edu.au/go/seniorstudy/hsc_rules_and_procedures/
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
Well I guess this really does apply to the Legal Industry, full of nepotism, a star chamber with a protected closed shop.
You are a small chance in Sydney then of selecting a lawyer that walked thru the front door based on merit and ability. More than likely your lawyer came thru the back door based on family connections and luck of birth.
In one of the nation's most prestigious degrees, the Bachelor of Combined. Law at UNSW, 91 per cent of offers were made to students who did not meet the ATAR cut-off of 99.7, including to two applicants who had scored only 67. More than 40 per cent of offers made to students to study a Bachelor of Combined Law at the University of Sydney were also below the cut-off of 99.5.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/nsw-universities-taking-students-with-atars-as-low-as-30-20160125-gmdvr6.html
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
^^^Although an ATAR score doesn't represent the minimum level of intelligence required for any particular degree. It's an entirely arbitrary number put on each degree based on the expected demand, the universities put a high ATAR score on degrees which have high demand because they think that they can be more choosy with the glamour degrees. If they don't get enough applicants who receive their arbitrarily fixed score, then they lower the score.
Essentially they could set any number for any degree they liked at their complete discretion.
For example; Bachelor of Sport and Excercise Science had an ATAR of 83.5 and Bachelor of Applied Physics had an ATAR of 71.2 (Uni Technology Sydney)
I know which one would require the higher IQ.
Essentially they could set any number for any degree they liked at their complete discretion.
For example; Bachelor of Sport and Excercise Science had an ATAR of 83.5 and Bachelor of Applied Physics had an ATAR of 71.2 (Uni Technology Sydney)
I know which one would require the higher IQ.
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
True they can do this but when 91% of successful applicants don't reach the set ATAR, you seriously have to question the moral and ethical standards of the University in question and the professionalism (or lack there of it) of the industry involved that accepts this situation.
It only serves to diminishes peoples opinion of the legal industry and the people who work in it.
I don't think it does. Judging the value of people's intellectual abilities at an arbitrary age at which they leave school is fairly flawed, i.e. ascribing too much to an ATAR or similar. Plenty find their feet and motivation a little later, so I'd be more interested in how they are at the end of the process of getting the degree, not the beginning. I think it's a leap to assume nepotism accounts for more than a small percentage of "intake".
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
It's the transparency of the process. If the ATAR score is just a load of BS what are the assessment criteria for a law degree at UNSW or Sydney University
How fair is the process for a kid from the Western Suburbs who has no idea what these unwritten criteria are for a backdoor entry into a law degree.
Where as most of your Eastern Suburbs kids will through family connections know all about these unwritten criteria and how to slip in via the back door to a law degree and entry into an exclusive and protected insiders club.
This is what I have a problem with, happy to be proved wrong if you can point me to some publication which shows me the criteria they use outside of the ATAR. Other than that the ATAR then is nothing but a smokescreen for running an insiders club.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
In the case of the law degree quoted earlier, then the ATAR set of 99.7 will mean that probably more that 91% of the population will fall short of the score. I'd suggest that 99.7 is an unrealistic number anyway and I agree that it puts into question the process.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Hopefully they get decent career advice at school before they finish their HSC. Any career advisor worth his/her salt would know how the system works. I'd also be interested in the basis of the statistics supplied by the Herald. Quite often people miss out on the ATAR score for the course of their choice - whether it's law, medicine, pharmacy or whatever, but there's quite often a related degree that they start off with and if they score highly in their first year they can apply to change courses on the basis of their results - so they actually get into their original chosen degree on the basis of their 1st year uni results not their ATAR score. The SMH would be disenguous if it included students such at these in their figures of students getting into a course with a lower ATAR.
Brian Westlake
Arch Winning (36)
I suggest you go to UNSW/USyd/Macquarie and do a quick Vox pop on where the kiddies originate. Then your debate may have some better knowledge.
Kids there are from all over Sydney Greater Sydney and country NSW as well as other states/ countries. New College at UNSW is great example of not just western Sydney but Australia as a multi cultural society.
The major point in question to you is how many of the students get off their respective arses and go seek unpaid internships at such "prestigious" firms as Mallisons or Carrs et al?
The secret society that you speak of can only carry you so far these days Ken. I would say it isn't nepotism per se, but putting yourself out there does wonders for job prospects, instead of sitting on your blurter waiting for a person to come and say "Here you go sonny jim. Here's a job because you got a good ATAR!"
If you want this point quantified, just look at Medicine at University of Sydney. Do your research and come back to me and you will see how fair your thoughts are then.