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School sporting scholarships/recruitment

Man on the hill

Alex Ross (28)
6 entries by you over night dodgy without anyone else saying a word - you really are being dragged into this unwillingly! You even manage to quote your self in self defence to an argument that no one has raised against you. Check your meds lad.

EDIT - 3 subsequently removed, including the indulgent self quote!
 

Man on the hill

Alex Ross (28)
In line with Scarfman's guidelines I have created this thread.

I am very interested in this topic as I have always been of the view that schools should offer the talented sportsperson a scholarship. If they can offer scholarships for the talented musician and talented academic why not the talented sportsman?

I was not educated at a GPS school nor have any of my children. I went to an ISA school so my comments cannot be confused with parochialism.

Sport is part of the Aussie make-up just as much as academic and other cultural successes so I believe talented rugby players should get a shot at attending a GPS school for their all round development.

Durkadurka posted this this morning;

aagps.nsw.edu.au:
Code of Practice
In the light of these principles, the GPS Headmasters affirm the following code of practice:

No inducements such as sporting scholarships, whether direct, disguised, or at arm's length, shall be offered by any member school. Financial assistance to talented sportsmen shall not form part of the enrolment strategy of any member school.

In this vein it appears some GPS schools are defying the code of practice. So I ask these questions;

1. Which schools appear to be defying the code?

2. Are sanctions in place for schools that have defied the code?

3. Are scholarships providing some schools an unfair advantage on the rugby field?

4. Should the code be amended in light of so many schools defying the code and bring it into line with what is really happening today?

Please heed Scarfman's advice when commenting on this topic;

"However, people entering the debate should be VERY careful to remain open and curious, and not simply biased in favour of their own school. And of course, to keep the issue of race out of it wherever possible."

The original post from 2010 - the more things change, the more they stay the same...
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Dicky Knee seems to have faith in Telegraph reporters, and the quailty and integrity of their journalism, that many others don't recognise.

It is hard to comment further without breaching rule 6.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Dicky Knee seems to have faith in Telegraph reporters, and the quailty and integrity of their journalism, that many others don't recognise.

It is hard to comment further without breaching rule 6.
I think we can summarise his views as:

1. Scots have done nothing wrong
2. The reporter from the Herald is conducting a vendetta against TSC
3. 5 GPS Headmasters are simply acting out of jealousy so should be disregarded
4. The 1 article published in the Daily Telegraph should be taken as gospel


He did originally say that he had nothing to do with Scots, but couldn't remain silent while injustice took place. I think he's now aknowledged that he is a passionate Scots man.
 

fsrugby

Frank Nicholson (4)
I feel the only problem is if students/families are approached by the school and are dangled a fee reduction as a carrot to attend, rather than families applying for bursaries or scholarships through the normal channels. THIS is where the line is crossed.

Freddo - this is exactly what IS happening - hence the problem.

They (Scots & New) have people attend NSW rep games and proactively identify and chase particular boys - they even go as far to be position 'selective' - eg we need another back rower. One boy as I have said before was serenaded by both. It reminds me of that ad 'kick it to me, kick it to me'!!
 

GPSrow

Watty Friend (18)
Freddo - this is exactly what IS happening - hence the problem.

They (Scots & New) have people attend NSW rep games and proactively identify and chase particular boys - they even go as far to be position 'selective' - eg we need another back rower. One boy as I have said before was serenaded by both. It reminds me of that ad 'kick it to me, kick it to me'!!

Well yeah they would have to be position 'selective' or there would be a double up.
 

fsrugby

Frank Nicholson (4)
Well yeah they would have to be position 'selective' or there would be a double up.

I didn't make my point well - the point is that they do not just offer random 'Scholarship's', to boys that just happen to be good sportsman - it is planned and premeditated - "We are a bit weak up front - go out and find me some front rowers" etc

Good luck in the HSC!
 

dodgyknee

Allen Oxlade (6)
I think we can summarise his views as:

1. Scots have done nothing wrong
2. The reporter from the Herald is conducting a vendetta against TSC
3. 5 GPS Headmasters are simply acting out of jealousy so should be disregarded
4. The 1 article published in the Daily Telegraph should be taken as gospel


He did originally say that he had nothing to do with Scots, but couldn't remain silent while injustice took place. I think he's now aknowledged that he is a passionate Scots man.
the latest article in the herald I just saw "takes the cake" for the biggest beat up I have heard, these stories are getting as wild as a hurricane. Guys it might be time to put up my previous crazy end game story I revealed but you took down that included "stupid"( please don't tell me you lost it) . I don't think I can remember it, but its gone to far when the herald reporter is turning, schools against schools, class war , the the govt to step in by arousing tax payers(which considering people who send there kids to private schools , I would imagine pay a fair percentage of income tax, for there own school, plus public schools, and on top of that pay there full fees at private schools.) Before more people spread and forget reason
 

Brian Westlake

Arch Winning (36)
the latest article in the herald I just saw "takes the cake" for the biggest beat up I have heard, these stories are getting as wild as a hurricane. Guys it might be time to put up my previous crazy end game story I revealed but you took down that included "stupid"( please don't tell me you lost it) . I don't think I can remember it, but its gone to far when the herald reporter is turning, schools against schools, class war , the the govt to step in by arousing tax payers(which considering people who send there kids to private schools , I would imagine pay a fair percentage of income tax, for there own school, plus public schools, and on top of that pay there full fees at private schools.) Before more people spread and forget reason
Dear Dodge
Do you honestly think that this is just about basket ball????
Do you honestly think that the SMH has a vindictive streak against scots college????
Do you honestly think that the local Anti scots college Community group are running a hate campaign against the school???
There is an old adage that states... If you think that one person in the group is a dick, he should have a look at himself. If you think ALL the persons in the group are dicks, YOU should have a look at yourself.

What is going on here is that scots council of world domination are never going to acquiesce to the AAGPS.
What is going on here now is that you have lots and lots of parents asking questions about costings at the school.
This, in turn, is just starting create the boil on the arse that the scots council didn't want. The indignation and the rebellion from within. The three major questions are WHY??? HOW???? And WHO IS PAYING????
A lot of Bellevue Hill mummies and daddies are not happy, Dodge

Best of luck
Brian
 

fsrugby

Frank Nicholson (4)
To all that those that have responded to Dodgy - myself included!

I do not believe that Dodgy believes what he writes - how could he! Therefore I think he keeps posting for one of two reasons

1. He tells his mates - you should see how easy it is to get up the nose of the guys on Green & Gold - they take the bait like you wouldn't believe.... OR
2. There is a view that some of the SMH 'material' has been obtained from this forum (a compliment?) therefore by filling the forum with garbage, and pushing meaningful comment off the last page, this helps Scots.

either way - I think it is best if everybody just ignores him
 

Muglair

Alfred Walker (16)
All very interesting; more hushed reports not just about no names recruiting practices but no name reporting of the views of "principals".

Yet to receive any comments on my proposal that the answer should be open transparency from all schools. Perhaps Vindictam would like to post the publicly available views of the "Principal", otherwise I can only presume that said Principal prefers to conduct his campaign by word of mouth or G&G. Mind you that is probably reflective of the GPS schools in general; there is no desire for real transparency at all. The status quo is preferable for most.

As has been discussed here previously these schools are significant SME businesses which means it is possible to lose a significant amount of money if enrolments fall. For instance there is a financial advantage if you can run a low cost model without boarding or significant investment in sport. If you are under pressure from your community for not sustaining historical sports advantages it is far easier to try and chop off the victors at the legs than build your own capacity.

I am sure that the balancing act of scholarships and bursaries is difficult and potentially divisive for all schools. The real cost is of course not the full fee (which not be receivable from a student not attending at all) but the marginal cost of filling an empty boarding bed and classroom chair. It seems that the other schools are quite happy to have Scots lay its books open for the public while being unwilling to expose themselves to the same scrutiny.

Before I get more comments on my own lack of ethics and being a moral vacuum I would like to share the comments of a senior fraud officer at the time of taking an appointment at (Monash I think) University some years ago:

10% of people are honest and would never lie cheat or steal
10 % are thieves and will steal anything that is nailed down, whether it is valuable or not
for the remaining 80%, it just depends on the circumstances.

That is why I think the attitude of the GPS Principals is inexcusable. There never was an option for them to turn a blind eye or have a "gentlemen's agreement". It was a flawed premise and should have been openly and transparently addressed. I think they are weak and hypocritical to have let it run this far. Talk of "they tried but Scots wouldn't listen and they ran out of patience" is just crap. Like the gossip girl whinging in private about Lambert's public statements.

The "problem" with Scots and Newington has been building for years not months. Problems with other schools (and Scots in 1993) have been there for decades. A lack of transparency leads to constant rumour and innuendo. My father asked me if I had seen the SMH articles (he is too old to adopt the internet and G&G) and told me about a well known winger from a well known school during the war. He played many years in the 1st XV and was extremely powerful and subsequently represented Australia after the war. He was rumoured to be 19 when he left (when high schools were 5 years). Also he was rumoured to have a son!

The problem is everyone's and they made it so when they all signed up to the lie that there are NO sports inducements in the GPS. To single out one school and make them accountable without making any steps to ensure all schools are accountable to the standard of NO inducements is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance.

Just for the record I am generally in support of sportsmen being able to obtain a good education off the back of their talent. This would generally be reflective of hardship based bursaries/scholarships etc. However I have a presumption that a lot of the rancour is based on a practice of recruiting from other GPS schools which is being hinted at. If this is proven to be the case I would certainly think it is a practice requiring a lot of scrutiny.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
That is why I think the attitude of the GPS Principals is inexcusable. There never was an option for them to turn a blind eye or have a "gentlemen's agreement". It was a flawed premise and should have been openly and transparently addressed. I think they are weak and hypocritical to have let it run this far. Talk of "they tried but Scots wouldn't listen and they ran out of patience" is just crap. Like the gossip girl whinging in private about Lambert's
So they are weak and hypocritical for letting it run.
But when they take action, you pop a valve?
Apart from just rolling over,what should the other Schools have done about this issue?
 

fsrugby

Frank Nicholson (4)
Yet to receive any comments on my proposal that the answer should be open transparency from all schools. Perhaps Vindictam would like to post the publicly available views of the "Principal", otherwise I can only presume that said Principal prefers to conduct his campaign by word of mouth or G&G. Mind you that is probably reflective of the GPS schools in general; there is no desire for real transparency at all. The status quo is preferable for most.

As has been discussed here previously these schools are significant SME businesses which means it is possible to lose a significant amount of money if enrolments fall. For instance there is a financial advantage if you can run a low cost model without boarding or significant investment in sport. If you are under pressure from your community for not sustaining historical sports advantages it is far easier to try and chop off the victors at the legs than build your own capacity.

Most people hold the view that New & Scots have entered the arms race to gets bums on seats - winning a GPS Rugby title apparently is fantastic for enrollments. Last years New Year 7 is the largest ever in the Schools history (over 230), so apparently it works - what I love about that year is that they will not be able to 'parachute' in large numbers of sporting scholarship boys in future years, as they literally do not have room for them. What is interesting however is that Shore - the only fully clean GPS School - is the hardest of all Schools to get into - you basically need to enroll your son the day he is born, otherwise you are likely to be on a waiting list (you cannot enroll 'in utero'), so maybe there are other more honorable ways (rather than extreme cheating) to achieve that.

In addition the other comment in that Para - 'chop off the victors at the legs' in my view has nothing to do with the current position of the gang of 5 - otherwise this would have happened years ago to Joeys & Kings - it is, as has been said before, the extremes that New & Scots have taken it to - In my view what they have been doing is obscene.

As for transparency and your view that Sporting Scholarship's are ok..

Transparency as I think you have described it creates some serious 'management issues' in this politically correct world that we live in. The Scots 'external reviewer' did not interview any of the 61 boys on privacy grounds - it is hard to argue with that position. You need to see more than just the 'books' to have 'transparency.

And as for Sporting Scholarships - I personally agree with you - my issue is, that they should only be 'accepted' in year 7 - my huge problem with this 'arms race' is the 'parachuting' - it is just an atrocious way to treat people. My suggestion remains...

Unlimited Scholarships in year 7 (they cannot afford to carry large numbers for 6 years - it is harder to pick top sportsman when they are only 12, etc) but none in following years AND use the Shore/Iggies game day program approach (Name and previous teams listed). All Schools follow the turning 19 rule because it is black & white - the rules need to have no grey - no room to wiggle out! Then you only need to check that the late 'arrivees' are fee paying - not hard (officially or unofficially by a walk down the sideline!).
 

Muglair

Alfred Walker (16)
So they are weak and hypocritical for letting it run.
But when they take action, you pop a valve?
Apart from just rolling over,what should the other Schools have done about this issue?

Yes they are, and the hypocrisy of people with the carriage of responsibility avoiding the hard questions really burns my gears.

I have no idea what the right answer is. On the other hand it is not my area of expertise or my paid employment obligation to do so. What I can say is that continuing to look for the easy answer will always have a suboptimal outcome.

Scots has been called out to account for itself. In the meantime I am happy to see that play out on its merits rather than join some lynch Lambert mob. While it is reasonable for the Principals to call into question question the integrity of Scots I do not think that it is open to them to demand by way of veiled public comment by Principals and personal briefings to Vindictam a higher level of integrity than they have displayed themselves.

I await the release from each of them of a similar level of information and analysis as provided by Scots.

The Year 7 concept has some merit but I cannot see why the program initiative is not already compulsory. Even then you have to ask why not. Were the Principals collectively concerned that it would raise more questions than they wanted to answer?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Some light relief to the Scots issue.

This from another thread.

KRudd (and his brother) went to Ashgrove due to the brothers' generosity helping his family out when his father died. His mother got back on her feet after a couple of years and took young Kevvie out of boarding school, he finished his schooling at Nambour HS with Wayne Swan. KRudd has subtley dissed Ashgrove a few times since his departure, the ungrateful bastard.

Is this what is wrong with Scholarships: academic; hardship; or sporting?:)
 

Muglair

Alfred Walker (16)
They now all look like sporting scholarships to me.

Obviously performance based and they punted him after a few years.

PR machine cover up. Maybe he should be giving PR advice to Scots
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Yes they are, and the hypocrisy of people with the carriage of responsibility avoiding the hard questions really burns my gears.

I have no idea what the right answer is. On the other hand it is not my area of expertise or my paid employment obligation to do so. What I can say is that continuing to look for the easy answer will always have a suboptimal outcome.

Scots has been called out to account for itself. In the meantime I am happy to see that play out on its merits rather than join some lynch Lambert mob. While it is reasonable for the Principals to call into question question the integrity of Scots I do not think that it is open to them to demand by way of veiled public comment by Principals and personal briefings to Vindictam a higher level of integrity than they have displayed themselves.

I await the release from each of them of a similar level of information and analysis as provided by Scots.

The Year 7 concept has some merit but I cannot see why the program initiative is not already compulsory. Even then you have to ask why not. Were the Principals collectively concerned that it would raise more questions than they wanted to answer?
The problem I have with your logic is that Dr L is STILL denying offering sporting scholarships.
You are suggesting that the other Schools should have taken action before it was clearly obvious that what the Dr said,could not be relied upon?
The issue is to my mind that both Scots & Newington were clearly in breach of the rules.Why do you think the other Schools are only taking action against one School?
 

Man on the hill

Alex Ross (28)
Snip The issue is to my mind that both Scots & Newington were clearly in breach of the rules.Why do you think the other Schools are only taking action against one School? Snip

I thought that was mildly obvious - Basketball is a less important sport than the rugger. To have buggered around with the rugger season would have been akin to cancelling the rowing!

By cancelling the basketball, they get their day of moral high ground without really affecting teh universe as they know it!
 
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