School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[GPS Observer]

The AAGPS has no goodwill left.
Just look at us as an example....we all take our positions and don't change, me included.
This band of brothers has been together too long and has had its time.
The Headmasters should all shake hands and walk away. Start again elsewhere.

 

[I like to watch]

The GPS brand is still a very powerful marketing tool for each of the Schools.
I don't think any of them are about to cause themselves damage by destroying the brand totally.

 

[Muglair]

The GPS brand is still a very powerful marketing tool for each of the Schools.
I don't think any of them are about to cause themselves damage by destroying the brand totally.

I have to agree with ILTW (yes, it hurts). I think GPS Observer's comments are valid insofar that no one appears to be dealing with this all that well. However there is 100 years of tradition, goodwill, bad will, friction and common purpose buried in there. At worst, there is a lot of value that has to be rescued.

More likely it is just time to take stock and decide what type of Association values and constitution position it for the next 100 years. Rightly or wrongly I always felt the governing body of my school was massively conservative and anxious to maintain a glacial pace of change. Statistically does that mean that the AAGPS comprising 8 schools is 64 times less likely to embrace change itself?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The GPS brand is still a very powerful marketing tool for each of the Schools.
I don't think any of them are about to cause themselves damage by destroying the brand totally.

I think AAGPS will survive regardless of what Scots do. As ILTW says they all have a huge economic vested interest in mainting the brand.

The actions of the gang of 5 have shown that they are prepared to excise one of their own to save the group as a whole.

Can AAGPS survive without Scots? Yes.

Can Scots survive without AAGPS? Yes but the Scots brand will be severely discounted and over time they would become just another private school with no more standing or relevance than the likes of Redham, St Spyridons, St Pauls Manly, Oxley, Northholm Grammar, Hills Grammar etc.

Will any other School Sporting Association welcome an AAGPS reject?
Can't see CAS or ISA embracing Scots if they were ejected from AAGPS.

Perhaps we will see the formation of SASSC - Sporting Association of Sydney Scots' Colleges. Lambert's boys would then be guaranteed World Domination of the SASSC competitions in all divisions of all age groups and all sports. Job Done.

 

[scaraby]

I think AAGPS will survive regardless of what Scots do. As ILTW says they all have a huge economic vested interest in mainting the brand.

The actions of the gang of 5 have shown that they are prepared to excise one of their own to save the group as a whole.

Can AAGPS survive without Scots? Yes.

Can Scots survive without AAGPS? Yes but the Scots brand will be severely discounted and over time they would become just another private school with no more standing or relevance than the likes of Redham, St Spyridons, St Pauls Manly, Oxley, Northholm Grammar, Hills Grammar etc.

Will any other School Sporting Association welcome an AAGPS reject?
Can't see CAS or ISA embracing Scots if they were ejected from AAGPS.

Perhaps we will see the formation of SASSC - Sporting Association of Sydney Scots' Colleges. Lambert's boys would then be guaranteed World Domination of the SASSC competitions in all divisions of all age groups and all sports. Job Done.

HJ and once again the issue is scholarships as a whole not just Scots unless you are a Herald Reporter. Unfortunately this will not just be about Scots it will be all GPS schools including the accusers who must be rapidly burning records as well.
Lets embrace the transparency idea which is yours as well and stop the catcalling which i note seems to be now taking on Northern Ireland preportions. Balance please and remember playing the man is a two way street. No need to pan someone because they disagree with you or can't type as well. (that is a general comment not aimed at you BTW)....none of us are still at school and last time I checked i drink beers with the Joeboys now not throw beers at em.

 

[Muglair]

Too true, one of my best mates a passionate man from Hunters Hill. However he did choke on his beer when I told him that SJC deplores the creeping of professionalism into schoolboy sport.

 

[John Brown]

The GPS brand is still a very powerful marketing tool for each of the Schools.
I don't think any of them are about to cause themselves damage by destroying the brand totally.

After going to a few rugby games this year at each of the GPS schools and thumbing through the various game day programs I was very surprised by one certain school trying for world domination back page had a page full of company sponsors.

As a sponsor for world domination I would be disappointed.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There are two issues:
a. School sporting scholarships in general (the subject of this thread), and
b. the allegations that the Gang of 5 have made about another member school breaching their agreed Code of Practice.

The first issue impacts on CAS, ISA, Brissie Schools and Vic Schools as well. Other posters have also identified that Schools in Auckland NZ are grappling with similar issues as was being discussed on this thread before the recent issue with Scots Basketball.

By all accounts CAS and ISA do not specifically exclude Sporting Scholarships in their publicly available written documentation, and anecdotaly there is a few sporting scholarships offered at a few of their schools in some sports. It seems to be self regulated to a degree, and not too many people are particularly upset about these. There is no particular call for complete transparency in relation to those scholarships.

The second issue about the Scots Basketball Boycott (which has become a proxy for all Scots Scholarships/Bursaries) is compounded by the fact that there is a specific agreement between the AAGPS heads saying NO scholarships or any nature. We can debate the merits or otherwise of opening up the AAGPS agreement on inducements, but the fact remains that by their own bylaws and protocols, the parties have agreed that there is to be none.

As someone has said earlier, a dollar stolen is still theft. Currently any scholarship or inducement for a talented sportsperson is in breach of the AAGPS agreement, and until the AAGPS heads all agree to amend their bylaws that will remain the case. In respect to the situation at Scots, the issues is not about scholarships in general, but that the majority of the schools in the AAGPS (5/9) believe that one of the schools has not complied with the letter nor the spirit of the AAGPS Agreement. It is not just SMH Herald reporters that have that view.

The other schools who have similarly been in breach of the agreement may now be taking measures to obfuscate those breaches, or may have simply implemented procedures to minimise the chances of a well intentioned staff member accidently acting in breach of the agreement in the future, whilst apologising for allowing that situation to arise in the first place and begging forgiveness. Regardless, the majority of the AAGPS heads have not felt compelled to "go public" about the actions of the other schools who may be in this situation. The alleged ringleader of the gang of 5 has actually admitted that his school has been in breach of the agreement in the past. It is telling that remaining 4 in the gang of 5 have not rounded up on him and declared TKS as "Schoola non grata".

Clearly the Gang of 5 want to see some form of behavioural modification from Scots. This expectation is not a Herald beat up. This issue may cause a rethink by the 9 members of the AAGPS about scholarships and inducements, but doesn't change the facts that the majority believe that Scots have significantly overstepped the mark with their Basketball programme.

Many on this forum are simply fascinated by the responses from the Scots Head of School to this situation, particularly when another member school has possibly been as bad as Scots has been accused of being yet that school appears to have escaped public censure.

I think there is scope for discussion about Sporting scholarships in general, how to regulate these and the impact that these may have on village club sport AND a parallel discussion about a specific evolving situation within the AAGPS.

I come back to my three general questions:

Do you think Schools should offer inducements to talented athletes?

Do you believe that Principals should act in breach of a Gentleman's agreement between likeminded Principals about how games between schools should be conducted?

If one or more Schools have actively breached the Gentleman's agreement about how games between schools should be conducted, do you believe that the other Principals should just HTFU and do nothing?

 

[Quick Hands]

Riverview principal Paul Hine pointed to "a widening gap in the interpretation of the principles and practices that underpin the GPS competition". "It has produced games of increasingly limited value over time," he said.​

This was the most significant comment that I saw from the GPS Heads meeting. This is a guy who has only been at Riverview for 2 terms, so doesn't have any past baggage.

I think that everyone accepts that Scots aren't the only GPS school to have ever offered inducements to talented sportsmen. There is a body of opinion, which includes 5 GPS school Headmasters, which says that Scots have embarked on a sports programme that has gone beyond even a relaxed view of the Code of Practice. If all schools embarked on a similar programme, it's no longer school sport, it would become elite sports teams sponsored by a school, in which many members of the team have little in common with the wider student body. I have always thought that this was why the 5 acted - they saw the future and they didn't like it very much at all.

Very difficult for the AAGPS to run meaningful competitions, if they aren't all on the same page in terms of purpose.

 

[GPS Observer]

In Rugby three of nine schools no longer play at the top level.
The co-premiers have been accused of cheating.
One school let it be known it nearly didn't play another school in the last round.
I personally heard, at a recent match, a group of U15 players discussing the opposition purely in terms of who the imports might be, nothing else.
In Basketball, today, one school refuses to play another and another school has gone into writing saying the same.
That competition has now been discussed in the media in an uncomplimentary way.
Because of differing emphasis on sport and sporting scholarships, the AAGPS is a broken model of association.
Worth saving? I don't think that's the question. Can it be saved ? I don't see how it can be.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Boycott of Scots' basketball teams may draw in other sports

Fairfax Media understands Dr Donaldson declined an invitation to meet parents of top athletes at other schools, who were allegedly approached by Scots staff. Some GPS heads are thought to be concerned by the ''intransigence'' of Dr Lambert over the alleged scale of his recruitment program.

Fairfax Media understands the increasingly bitter stand-off could broaden to alleged improper recruiting practices by Scots in other sports.
Such concerns are thought to extend back several seasons. Similar allegations have been raised by GPS heads against Newington College, which has not joined the boycott.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/boycott-of-scots-basketball-teams-may-draw-in-other-sports-20131018-2vscs.html#ixzz2i676YyJC

In deference to Dodgyknoath I checked the Telegraph site but I could see nothing on this issue.

 

[rugboy]

So Dr Lambert continues to bunker down and seemingly live in a state of denial about both his own school and the position of the other 5 schools. So where to from here....

Dr Lambert has gone too far to ever back down from his stance. If the ban were to extend to rugby and cricket especially given the oft description of make up of Scots 16s team this year who fill filter into 1st and 2nds next year where does this leave things?

Will the board continue to back Dr Lambert and risk the school being dragged through a public trial by newspaper throughout 2014? Or will they use him as the scapegoat to restore their position in GPS competition and forego the pursuit of world domination?

Do the other heads haver the power to expel Scots or any other school for that matter from GPS? I'm guessing what ever happens this still has a long and very public ways to go.

 

[Quick Hands]

So Dr Lambert continues to bunker down and seemingly live in a state of denial about both his own school and the position of the other 5 schools. So where to from here..

Dr Lambert has gone too far to ever back down from his stance. If the ban were to extend to rugby and cricket especially given the oft description of make up of Scots 16s team this year who fill filter into 1st and 2nds next year where does this leave things?

Will the board continue to back Dr Lambert and risk the school being dragged through a public trial by newspaper throughout 2014? Or will they use him as the scapegoat to restore their position in GPS competition and forego the pursuit of world domination?

Do the other heads haver the power to expel Scots or any other school for that matter from GPS? I'm guessing what ever happens this still has a long and very public ways to go.

Good poost.

I don't think that there is a power to expel or suspend. All that schools can really do is to decide not to play one of their number.

Strange that after months of denying any sportsmen at Scots were on any form of assistance, we have heard no comment from the Scots defenders about the 61 bursary holders who are talented sportsmen.

 

[lincoln]

Good poost.

I don't think that there is a power to expel or suspend. All that schools can really do is to decide not to play one of their number.

Strange that after months of denying any sportsmen at Scots were on any form of assistance, we have heard no comment from the Scots defenders about the 61 bursary holders who are talented sportsmen.

The gang of five could vote to not award competition points to games involving Scots.

 

[Quick Hands]

Boycott of Scots' basketball teams may draw in other sports





In deference to Dodgyknoath I checked the Telegraph site but I could see nothing on this issue.

Interesting that Dr Lambert seems to have a completely different recollection of the meeting than the others. We're not talking about differing on minor details, but diametrically opposed accounts of what happened and what was decided. Maybe he's one of those people who just don't hear things that they don't want to accept.

 

[Freddo Frog]

Strange that after months of denying any sportsmen at Scots were on any form of assistance, we have heard no comment from the Scots defenders about the 61 bursary holders who are talented sportsmen.

Okay I'll give it a go, this is only my take on it mind you. I'm certainly not privy to which students are on any form of assistance (and it surprises me that so many others claim to be, but that's a separate issue).

Regarding the 61 "who could be described as talented sportsmen". Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious on some points, but here goes:

Firstly, the bursary process is based on a family's financial inability to pay the listed schedule of fees. Assuming at least a quarter of families might find GPS fees a quite considerable burden, they would at least apply (and this requires providing tax and bank statements etc).
If you pass this first hurdle (ie can't afford full freight), you are then put in a pool of 'possibles'.

Now, I'm the school money-man, and I have (out of the 50 applicants) a possible 30 kids who passed the financial requirements, to choose to award bursaries to. But the school can only fund say 10 kids. I'm going to look through the CV's (also required on application for bursary) of each of the 30 kids. What can they offer the school - ie. Are they 'contributors' in a wide range of areas? Have they shown themselves to be willing? Have they shown talent in any areas? Then I'm going to rank them in order of where I feel the school's bursary fund would be best spent.

Then it narrows down to interviews, let's say 20 are granted. Results from this may change the order of the pile slightly - some kids may be negative about the school, or painfully shy, or whatever, which may move them up or down the pile of 'possibles'. The school shuffles their pile, and make offers of bursaries to the top 10, and may or may not offer them to the next few if any are knocked back.

It seems to me just common sense that a school would look through the list of applications, and award bursaries to kids who will contribute (preferably in many ways) to the school. So some bursary kids (roughly a quarter according to the Scots figures) being good at sport is not really a surprise. Add to that, that the kids now access top-notch coaching, and you will almost certainly end up with more 'notable athletes' than you started with.

I feel the only problem is if students/families are approached by the school and are dangled a fee reduction as a carrot to attend, rather than families applying for bursaries or scholarships through the normal channels. THIS is where the line is crossed.

 

[Quick Hands]

Okay I'll give it a go, this is only my take on it mind you. I'm certainly not privy to which students are on any form of assistance (and it surprises me that so many others claim to be, but that's a separate issue).

Regarding the 61 "who could be described as talented sportsmen". Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious on some points, but here goes:

Firstly, the bursary process is based on a family's financial inability to pay the listed schedule of fees. Assuming at least a quarter of families might find GPS fees a quite considerable burden, they would at least apply (and this requires providing tax and bank statements etc).
If you pass this first hurdle (ie can't afford full freight), you are then put in a pool of 'possibles'.

Now, I'm the school money-man, and I have (out of the 50 applicants) a possible 30 kids who passed the financial requirements, to choose to award bursaries to. But the school can only fund say 10 kids. I'm going to look through the CV's (also required on application for bursary) of each of the 30 kids. What can they offer the school - ie. Are they 'contributors' in a wide range of areas? Have they shown themselves to be willing? Have they shown talent in any areas? Then I'm going to rank them in order of where I feel the school's bursary fund would be best spent.

Then it narrows down to interviews, let's say 20 are granted. Results from this may change the order of the pile slightly - some kids may be negative about the school, or painfully shy, or whatever, which may move them up or down the pile of 'possibles'. The school shuffles their pile, and make offers of bursaries to the top 10, and may or may not offer them to the next few if any are knocked back.

It seems to me just common sense that a school would look through the list of applications, and award bursaries to kids who will contribute (preferably in many ways) to the school. So some bursary kids (roughly a quarter according to the Scots figures) being good at sport is not really a surprise. Add to that, that the kids now access top-notch coaching, and you will almost certainly end up with more 'notable athletes' than you started with.

I feel the only problem is if students/families are approached by the school and are dangled a fee reduction as a carrot to attend, rather than families applying for bursaries or scholarships through the normal channels. THIS is where the line is crossed.

I suspect that if the school ran its programme along the lines that you've suggested, there probably wouldn't be the issues that now exist.

I fully agree with your last paragraph and this seems to be what is alleged to have occurred in at least some cases.

 

[dodgyknee]

Boycott of Scots' basketball teams may draw in other sports





In deference to Dodgyknoath I checked the Telegraph site but I could see nothing on this issue.

 

[dodgyknee]

The gang of five could vote to not award competition points to games involving Scots.

what if 60 of 61burseries where only say the minimum discount, is that a problem. Considering all schools have burseries in private school, I would imagine( or a discount) should we think they all pay nothing. Can't be, would reflect parents income, are they all unemployed, this argument is a beat up and ridiculous. Let's wait and see how things process before wild assumptions are made. With regard to the Melbourne past headmaster, and school rugby official+ wouldn't you think his judgement is independent, or does he just want to tarnish his whole career, without looking into facts- I don't think I would no matter how much I was paid . Why is herald reporter now throwing mud at him or creating doubt about his skills/intentions/role. No wonder no one gives comments, when the herald reporter can create the angles he wants to all papers. Herald reporter must like weak competition the way he is Going.

 

[dodgyknee]

Don't insult all our intelligence about whispered no comment inducements , people go to schools becauae they have researched the facts and made decisions on there circumstances and there is nothing wrong with that. Let's face it you don't go to a school without careful thought first. Facts and needs influence your final decision. Or a suppose it nots legal to ask and talk to schools,teachers, principle, coaches before you make that judgement as is this an inducement -. To me thats is getting your facts before. your final choice. or can't anyone talk to anyone anymore.