School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Inside Shoulder]

At the risk of saying nothing new we now need to move into the 21st Century. Many other quaint elite Public School propositions have thankfully passed on as the distinction between Gentlemen and Professionals fades and it is no longer a requirement that an Amateur captain the English Cricket Team (although maybe there is some merit for this as a new ACB initiative).

Far from criticising Dr Lambert, as has been done widely on these pages, I applaud his stance against the Gang of Five. Clearly they have waffled into their ports and decided that Scots has exceeded the imaginary limit of illicit scholarships and decided it is time to bring them back into line (ref: Tim Hawkes: SMH). They send letters in unison and arrange to meet him in turn, no doubt to speak sternly to him and procure undertakings on the reduction in number of scholarships.

I bet they can't even agree on the imaginary limit and even if they did, half of them would be breaching it! What arrogance, what dishonesty, what bully boy behaviour. When he demonstrates that he is not for such turning the individual meetings are cancelled. That looks like typical bully boy behaviour as well.

If there is some grand plan at Scots for the physical and sporting development of all boys then Dr Lambert has no choice but to stand up and be prepared to be accountable, to the other schools and the Scots community. I understand the scepticism related to the appointment by Scots of an external reviewer. However it is only the appropriate first step, he has offered to open his books and the other GPS schools are free to accept or reject the initial report.

We desperately need to have these issues totally out in the open so each school community can judge for itself the directions being taken. It could well be that this widespread concern amongst the Scots community is in fact why Dr Lambert wishes to bring everything out in the open so that people can judge for themselves.

If as inferred elsewhere that the real concerns relate to 2014 sporting teams then that can be revealed and judged. If some rumours are true then the practices must be exposed so that the school community itself can record its own judgement.

This innuendo has been going for generations and it is time it is put to bed. We all accept that this is happening in secrecy and leap to the presumption in the face of rumour and results that Scots and Newington must have cheated the system (myself included). So much for the quality of our own education.

The limit is not imaginary it is specified and it is 0.
If, as to which there is not the slightest evidence, Lambert's plan was to encourage transparency the logical first step in that process would have been to declare this position. Instead he waited until his bluff was called, and yet is still not asserting that this is his motive - rather, he does not need a motive because it is not happening.
The problem with the way it is being and has been handled is that it ignores the fact that parents will talk and the old 6 degrees of separation means that we have all seen the otherwise inexplicable transfers of kids we know (or know of) to one of these schools. In addition, of course, Him Tawkes has removed any chance for TKS to deny its own involvement.
There are only 2 issues:

• institutions previously piously espousing higher values have been behaving contrary to an undertsanding and so are morally dilinquent - very poor example to be setting, IMO;
• the australian rugby landscape is being buggered up by warehousing talent - this is the more important issue for me.

 

[GPS Observer]

All things have their time.
The GPS that may now have had its time. I don't say that gleefully or disrespectfully.
It may be time for Kings et al to form a new alliance of like minded schools and for Scots and New to look for participants to form a group who , in their offerings, include an offer of support for sporting excellence.
Nobody is right and nobody is wrong.....like minded schools just reconfigure who they associate with.

 

[Muglair]

The limit is not imaginary it is specified and it is 0.
If, as to which there is not the slightest evidence, Lambert's plan was to encourage transparency the logical first step in that process would have been to declare this position. Instead he waited until his bluff was called, and yet is still not asserting that this is his motive - rather, he does not need a motive because it is not happening.
The problem with the way it is being and has been handled is that it ignores the fact that parents will talk and the old 6 degrees of separation means that we have all seen the otherwise inexplicable transfers of kids we know (or know of) to one of these schools. In addition, of course, Him Tawkes has removed any chance for TKS to deny its own involvement.
There are only 2 issues:

• institutions previously piously espousing higher values have been behaving contrary to an undertsanding and so are morally dilinquent - very poor example to be setting, IMO;
• the australian rugby landscape is being buggered up by warehousing talent - this is the more important issue for me.

The Scots thing will now play out and we should all move on and wait for the outcome.

IS, you neatly summarise the two issues provided that the reference to "institutions" includes all of the GPS schools. It is their association, they will need to sort out how it should work. As you say 0=zero but the school Principals do not seem to be strictly observing mathematical principles (sorry, couldn't help myself there). You have integrity or you do not; perpetrators or tolerators (if there are some innocents) are equally as guilty.

This thread itself just circles around those issues then confuses itself with the impact on junior rugby pathways. As you suggest this is the important issue rather than the squabbling over some schoolboy competition.

The very covering up of incentives and the reasons schools, boys and parents are pursuing them clouds the debate over pathways. The inadequacies of their current pathway perceived by this significant number of boys is where the ARU and others need to focus. The attractions of the pathway offered must provide clues as to where resource or effort should be focussed.

The point previously made about the dilution of the broader playing base by collecting the best players in sports high schools or certain private schools is a valid one (and a parallel to academic pathway arguments). However the development of the above average player is certainly substantially assisted by playing with and against other good players and receiving the right coaching and physical training. Some academies are in place but this system cannot be producing the right results.

Conversely it could be said that the scholarships and selective schools are impacting the academy system.

Who knows, but the facts are clouded by whispers and innuendo sometimes bolstered by personal knowledge of a particular school or group of parents which is only a small part of the big picture.

As I write it does occur to me that this is one of the real issues in Australian Rugby ate the moment. We much rather deal in the controversy, the rumour, projecting how we would like it to be than in facing the hard facts and girding ourselves for the hard work of being honest about where we are, where we want to be and then going and doing it.

 

[fsrugby]

Stan, I apologise for my spelling error (my only excuse is that I wrote it on the fly!) – however as I have told you before, I do not have a son that was in any way negatively impacted by ‘Parachuters’

In addition I do not have a major issue with Scots high performance centre – as long as they have the best of the best in their Maths, English departments (etc, etc) than I cannot see a major problem in them providing the same level of ‘service/equipment’ to sport. In fact parents who are paying such massive fees are probably ok with it as well. After all, schools are meant to nurture and develop the whole boy – not just the academic one.
That paragraph though is also the reason as to why the Scholarship madness that Scots and Newington have engaged in the last few years is NOT acceptable. The full fee paying parents do not expect it nor do they want it – the Schools have not been trying to nurture or develop their existing students – they have been riding roughshod over them – all because victory is so important to them!
The rules say no sporting scholarships – this apparently was a unanimous decision (except High who do not vote on Private School only issues). Most of them seemed to accept one or two breaches per sport – and then Newington & Scots come along and import whole teams – and to make it worse these imports come to the schools in year 9 or 10 (or 11, which apparently is another rule breach). It is just appalling. It will ruin the GPS competition. Rugby is already two tier – if it continued Shore would also drop down – they are way too good for thirds. On duty of care considerations Shore nearly forfeited the last game of this year against Newington.

I don’t want to get too deep and meaningful, but... Australia tragically for many years had the highest rate of male youth suicide in the world – I am not suggesting in any way that Scots and Newington have contributed to that. What I am saying is that these boys are boys – they are not men – they are easily hurt, even if they do not show this pain externally. Expecting one day to play 1stXV or 1stV and to be beaten to the position by one of your year 7 mates is one thing, but to be beaten by some no fee paying, late blow in, is just gut wrenching and demoralising – it would play on your mind. It is not how any School should treat its students.

As I said before – it is better to loose with dignity than to win by cheating.

 

[Quick Hands]

Dr Lambert revealed some interesting statistics last Friday in the Daily Telegraph.

While denying the claims, Scots principal Ian Lambert detailed the background of Scots’ top 20 players, revealing 12 were enrolled before Year 8, seven began schooling in years 9 or 10, while only one started in Year 11

So 8 out of 20 started in Year 9 or after. We don't know how many started in Year 8 or Year 7 because of the way he's described the 12. He would know the exact date that every boy started. Strange that he's picked Year 8 and not Year 7 as his reference.

Mr Lambert said while Scots does not grant sports scholarships, it provides means-tested bursaries to 19 per cent of its students.

This seems an extraordinarily high number (bearing in mind it only includes bursaries, not the academic or music scholarhips that the school offers). So around 1 in 5 boys aren't paying full fees.

But how many students does this mean?

myschool website says Scots have 1783 students, so that means that Scots have somewhere between 350 and 360 students on busaries. Some would no doubt be half bursaries and others full bursaries. That's a lot of money that has to come from somewhere (i.e. full fee paying parents) and it could be up to $900,000 per year.

EDIT $9,000,000 not $900,000

 

[thethirteenthcoming]

Dr Lambert revealed some interesting statistics last Friday in the Daily Telegraph.

While denying the claims, Scots principal Ian Lambert detailed the background of Scots’ top 20 players, revealing 12 were enrolled before Year 8, seven began schooling in years 9 or 10, while only one started in Year 11

So 8 out of 20 started in Year 9 or after. We don't know how many started in Year 8 or Year 7 because of the way he's described the 12. He would know the exact date that every boy started. Strange that he's picked Year 8 and not Year 7 as his reference.

Mr Lambert said while Scots does not grant sports scholarships, it provides means-tested bursaries to 19 per cent of its students.

This seems an extraordinarily high number (bearing in mind it only includes bursaries, not the academic or music scholarhips that the school offers). So around 1 in 5 boys aren't paying full fees.

But how many students does this mean?

myschool website says Scots have 1783 students, so that means that Scots have somewhere between 350 and 360 students on busaries. Some would no doubt be half bursaries and others full bursaries. That's a lot of money that has to come from somewhere (i.e. full fee paying parents) and it could be up to $900,000 per year.

but wouldnt some of the 1783 students be from the prep school? and i would honestly doubt scots would be giving a 10 year old a scholarship

 

[Brian Westlake]

Newington 1st XV - Sporting Summer and Winter

1. Vunipola - GPS Athletics - Shotput
2. Serhorn - Rowing - 4th IV
3. Mesui - GPS Athletics - Shotput
4. Anthony Vasilis - Injured in summer season.
5. Prassas - Basketball - 1sts
6. Morris - Cricket - 1st XI
7. Mill - Crossfit
8. Cannell - Cricket - 1st XI
9. Joey Lussick - GPS swimming - Rugby league in summer
10. Lachlan Anderson - Cricket - 1st XI
11. Sepesa - GPS Athletics - Track.
12. Abrahams - Crossfit.
13. Tepai - GPS Athletics - Shotput - Rugby league in summer.
14. Kennewell - GPS Athletics - Rowing - 4th IV
15. Tanne - Rugby League in summer - Crossfit.

Reserves

Josh Mitchell - 1sts Basketball - GPS Athletics

CROSSFIT?????? FFS!!!!!

 

[fsrugby]

$9,000,000 not $900,000?

 

[Muglair]

Glory me, I was thinking the left nut was just a ratbag. Turns out he could be correct and that this string is really all about the handful of kids who could not make the 1sts and their difficulty in coping. Not to mention the fact that their parents keep on and on about it because lets face it that's where most of the complaints come from.

School is pretty much tough for a lot of people. Boys only independent schools must rate right up there as far as the peer pressure on each student goes. Save your sympathy for the kid who can't deal with being stuck in the B academic stream, or the D sporting stream, or just does not fit the mould of what is the 'norm'.

To elevate the plight of a handful of kids who cannot make the 1sts to that of a very significant broader social problem is a real indication that this whole topic is overly self indulgent.

 

[Quick Hands]

but wouldnt some of the 1783 students be from the prep school? and i would honestly doubt scots would be giving a 10 year old a scholarship

Correct, the scholarships would all be in the secondary school, but the school population is 1783. One assumes that Dr Lambert has chosen to use a percentage rather than a raw number for a reason.

 

[Quick Hands]

$9,000,000 not $900,000?

You're right, not enough zeros.

 

[Brian Westlake]

Gee that's a bit of a rant FSRugby. Did someone more skilled than you or your son drop in via parachute and ruin your sweet schoolboy cozy pond?
How tragic life is.so dramatic.

Listen you'd do well to brush up on your spelling "I can understand why you might think Joeys and Kings are hypercritics" Maybe you flunked English but excelled at Drama

Hey Stan

How is old mate fsrugby? Why does he share your keyboard? Working an alter ego has already been done... Move on please

 

[fsrugby]

To elevate the plight of a handful of kids who cannot make the 1sts to that of a very significant broader social problem is a real indication that this whole topic is overly self indulgent.

I was not making that elevation - I was making the point that they are kids not men. A handful to me is 2 or 3 - not 20 or 30, which would be how many boys at Newington have missed out on higher representation from Newingtons 2013 year 12 (in all Sports - 13 or 14 in Rugby alone). That year was a small year (by New standards) of I think about 150 - therefore they have adversely impacted about 20% of their full fee paying students that year in the blind pursuit of victory. Not me - but if you were a parent paying big fees I think you would justifiably upset by that level of mistreatment - their kids have not even been given a chance to make the top grade.

When you pay a fee for a service you are entitled to good service.

 

[Muglair]

Which is my point FSR, Dr Lambert will now very publicly need to make his case to fee paying parents. It would be much better for all concerned if the full merits could be discussed which will still be clouded in rhetoric (Hawkes' term: SMH) around the relative importance of sporting based scholarships (if this is what they are)

What will be a total shame is that Lambert succeeds in taming the Scots parents but nothing else changes. This same absurd and fundamentally dishonest structure continues until the next school has to be pulled back in line.

The only possible argument for winding back to zero is that we want to maintain some sort of "purity" in school sport. If this were the case we should be reconsidering the place of a GPS "competition" in that model.

A strong case could possibly be made for getting adults out of the organisation of interschool sport altogether, restricted to the provision of resources to assist with administration, coaching and supervision.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Sport is part of the school curriculum, like mathematics.

Parents attend sporting School activities and some carry on like pork chops on the sidelines.

How many parents attend little Johnny's maths class, to stand at back and yell out, "Yeah Johnny, well done." "Go Johnny, multiple both sides of the equation by the same value" "c'mon boys, complex quadratic equations are easy, you can do it", "write down your working, boys".

Run school games midweek, and don't maintain competition tables or School association representative teams. Disband Schools RU at state and national level. Want to play rep rugby on the pathway, go see your local village club. Rep rugby is Age Group only and organised as part of the Jnr Gold Cup Programme.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The only possible argument for winding back to zero is that we want to maintain some sort of "purity" in school sport. If this were the case we should be reconsidering the place of a GPS "competition" in that model.

Its not a question of purity - I dont see this as being about port sniffing wheezers yearning for the days when their old school could still win the premiership.
Winning the premiership is not the goal.
Its a question of whether or not there is, still, a shared ideal relating to the role of school sport. That ideal does not include winning premierships for their own sake.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Run school games midweek, and don't maintain competition tables or School association representative teams. Disband Schools RU at state and national level. Want to play rep rugby on the pathway, go see your local village club. Rep rugby is Age Group only and organised as part of the Jnr Gold Cup Programme.

Now you're talking HJ.

 

[Spieber]

Their top dog is called the Moderator-General and the position rotates annually as far as I know. Interestingly, the majority of the School Council at Scots are still Presbyterian Clergy.

Sounds like a corporate governance problem at Scots if the Council is full of well meaning people. Good corporate governance requires a board of review comprised of people with both the competence to understand and the independence/willingness to question/act. At the very least the review should have been conducted by the council not the headmaster and whoever heads the council should be the public face in this matter. Do we have an autocracy out Bellevue Hill way?

 

[wreckless]

Newington 1st XV - Sporting Summer and Winter

1. Vunipola - GPS Athletics - Shotput
2. Serhorn - Rowing - 4th IV
3. Mesui - GPS Athletics - Shotput
4. Anthony Vasilis - Injured in summer season.
5. Prassas - Basketball - 1sts
6. Morris - Cricket - 1st XI
7. Mill - Athletics ( 4 x 400 relay ) + Crossfit
8. Cannell - Cricket - 1st XI
9. Joey Lussick - GPS swimming - Rugby league in summer
10. Lachlan Anderson - Cricket - 1st XI
11. Sepesa - GPS Athletics - Track.
12. Abrahams - Crossfit.
13. Tepai - GPS Athletics - Shotput - Rugby league in summer.
14. Kennewell - GPS Athletics - Rowing - 4th IV
15. Tanne - Rugby League in summer - Crossfit.

Reserves

Josh Mitchell - 1sts Basketball - GPS Athletics

 

[Quick Hands]

Sport is part of the school curriculum, like mathematics.

Parents attend sporting School activities and some carry on like pork chops on the sidelines.

How many parents attend little Johnny's maths class, to stand at back and yell out, "Yeah Johnny, well done." "Go Johnny, multiple both sides of the equation by the same value" "c'mon boys, complex quadratic equations are easy, you can do it", "write down your working, boys".

Run school games midweek, and don't maintain competition tables or School association representative teams. Disband Schools RU at state and national level. Want to play rep rugby on the pathway, go see your local village club. Rep rugby is Age Group only and organised as part of the Jnr Gold Cup Programme.

In my experience, some parents at club games carry on badly as well and don't think that some parents aren't in regular communication with teachers as to why little Johnny isn't scoring an A, because mummy and daddy were A students, so it must be the teachers' fault if little Johnny isn't an A student as well.

A couple of reasons that private schools don't play sport mid-week are because that time is devoted to academic endeavours (although TSC have 2 hours per week of sports training now in their timetable) and games are played on Saturdays. The majority of the schools were at one time mostly boarding and it was the way to keep the boys busy and engaged on Saturdays. A majority of the schools still have a significant boarding component.

There's nothing wrong with the GPS schools running their own competition on Saturdays as part of their sports programme, the problem is that rugby in particular has no club based system of its own that is capable at the moment of competing with the schools. This is a problem of the ARU/NSWRU's own making. The model for elite development of sport in Australia is club based, with input from the governing body. If rugby had this system, there would be little incentive for little Johnny to travel from Newport to Bellevue Hill every day. The ARU has left a vacuum and the schools have filled it. The trouble being that the schools aren't interested in winning test matches in 5 years time, they're interested in winning 1st XV so they develop and coach the boys with that goal in mind.