S18 on its way

[kiap]

Singapore looks to be firming as the favourite:

http://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby/...homage-to-neymar/story-fnimctwm-1226977014538

The idea of it being a Pac Islands team is interesting, but the big decider has to be that travel difference; 11 hours versus 23 to Japan (for South Africans).

Yep. And no surprise in that.

The Channel Ten comments and French exodus items further down aren't happy reading, though.

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

Japan's gateway to being competitive is that they have a 14 team league. Even France doesn't have 14 good sides in their league. It's simply not the way to improve their local game.

Japan doesn't need Super Rugby, they need to run their local league better.

That being said, having a Super Rugby team certainly wouldn't hurt their improvement.

This, they have a league with a good foundation that they should be focusing on improving, instead of throwing it all away for the sake of one single Super Rugby team.

 

[Omar Comin']

How much do you know about rugby in Australia? Are you aware of how many Wallabies have come from Melbourne (including the current Australian coach)?

Singapore is not now, and never ever will be, a place where rugby is played seriously as a grass-roots sport. That fact is relevant, unless I do not know the meaning of the word.

Yes Ewen McKenzie is one of the small number of born and raised Victorians that have represented the Wallabies. More relevant is that there are currently 0 Melbourne born and raised players playing for the Rebels. The Rebels certainly didn't come into the comp because Melbourne has produced a few Wallabies over the last 100 odd years. Nor because grassroots rugby is so strong that they needed a team for all the players they're producing.

And never say never. Singapore has 5 million people and very little professional sport. In rugby they will be in the new Division 1 of the Asian Cup next year after beating former Top 5 team UAE 30-13. That's one division below the new Top 3 competition between Japan, Hong Kong and South Korea. And unlike HK half the Singaporean team are locals.

With a professional side in Singapore I'm sure at least 1 or 2 of those guys will get an opportunity to train professionally in the squad and from there who knows. No doubt they'd also recruit a few Japanese players so that they're not just a team of Islanders and white guys.

 

[Omar Comin']

This, they have a league with a good foundation that they should be focusing on improving, instead of throwing it all away for the sake of one single Super Rugby team.

I don't think they would be throwing it away.

Japan's problem is that the Top League is a company league. Most of the players involved are amateur - full time employees of their company. And it doesn't get great support outside of employees of the company, who are basically forced to go and watch.

A company league is no real chance of popularising the sport there and there's too many teams and too many amateur players for the standard to be really strong. Super rugby - with eventually say 2 or 3 Japanese teams as part of an Asian conference might do a lot more for them, both in terms of player development and increasing the popularity of rugby. The Top League (which is played at a completely different time of year anyway) would underpin it.

 

[p.Tah]

The Channel Ten comments and French exodus items further down aren't happy reading, though.

I'm not too concerned about TEN's comments. I suspect it's just part of the negotiating process.
Any minute they'll say they're more interested in the TV rights to the Japanese or French rugby

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

I don't think they would be throwing it away.

Japan's problem is that the Top League is a company league. Most of the players involved are amateur - full time employees of their company. And it doesn't get great support outside of employees of the company, who are basically forced to go and watch.

A company league is no real chance of popularising the sport there and there's too many teams and too many amateur players for the standard to be really strong. Super rugby - with eventually say 2 or 3 Japanese teams as part of an Asian conference might do a lot more for them, both in terms of player development and increasing the popularity of rugby. The Top League (which is played at a completely different time of year anyway) would underpin it.

I understand that, the J League had similar problems prior to the current era though where you'd find current powerhouses Yokohama Marinos, Nagoya Grampas and Urawa Red Diamonds were in fact extensions and named after Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi respectively. The clubs have since separated from their parent companies at least to the point where they are not seen to be extensions but rather clubs in their own rights.

Now if it wasn't that hard for Football and the J League which has since gone on to become the strongest league in Asia, it shouldn't be too difficult for Top League Rugby. The Top League shouldn't be underpinning Super Rugby, it has the potential to become a strong league in its own right as a competitor to Super Rugby.

 

[Omar Comin']

Now if it wasn't that hard for Football and the J League which has since gone on to become the strongest league in Asia, it shouldn't be too difficult for Top League Rugby. The Top League shouldn't be underpinning Super Rugby, it has the potential to become a strong league in its own right as a competitor to Super Rugby.

If the appetite was there to transform the Top League then it probably would have already happened. I suspect the companies involved in the Top League have no desire to change the name or focus of their teams. They're in it for company pride. It's like an HR strategy.

Super Rugby and the Top League do not overlap. Actually it works out quite perfectly as the Top League would lead into Super Rugby. There's no reason both can't co-exist in Japan.

And from an Australian perspective - of wanting Australian rugby to generate enough revenue to keep our best players in Australia, I certainly hope Japan come into Super Rugby at some point and that it's wildly successful.

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

If the appetite was there to transform the Top League then it probably would have already happened. I suspect the companies involved in the Top League have no desire to change the name or focus of their teams. They're in it for company pride. It's like an HR strategy.

Super Rugby and the Top League do not overlap. Actually it works out quite perfectly as the Top League would lead into Super Rugby. There's no reason both can't co-exist in Japan.

And from an Australian perspective - of wanting Australian rugby to generate enough revenue to keep our best players in Australia, I certainly hope Japan come into Super Rugby at some point and that it's wildly successful.

You could well be right, I would like to find the reasoning why their football sides diverged without issue. It's quite hard to find information on these sort of things.

 

[en_force_er]

This, they have a league with a good foundation that they should be focusing on improving, instead of throwing it all away for the sake of one single Super Rugby team.

Agreed. The structure doesn't allow much player transition between the Japanese teams for the Japanese natives but there's no reason they couldn't only have 8 teams in their Top League (rather than 14), thus spreading the good player coming through less thin.

Hell, with the way Super Rugby is being structured we could eventually declare this hypothetical 8 team league a Super Rugby conference, who cares in they get pantsed in finals as they'd still play for the local trophy and it'd only amount to a couple of games a year.

 

[Rebel rouser]

It's not often I agree with Eddie Jones, but he's got it right on this one.
“It is a joke that Singapore is even being considered as the base for the 18th Super Rugby team when Japan ticks all the right boxes for forward thinking. If travel is the deciding factor then Dubai should be selected and rugby ethos and history ignored altogether."

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/super-rugby/news/140707/Singapore_the_favourite_for_Super_Rugby

I have to admit, I've been trying to keep an open mind about expansion, but things are starting to get ridiculous. South Africa are forcing S18 on Aus and NZ because they need to get the Spears in. Let's not forget the fact that South African teams currently occupy 4 of the bottom 6 positions in the Super Rugby table.

All in all, Japan makes the most sense from a pure expansion perspective. But if you factor in travel, well I'll be buggered if i know what should be done. Maybe two Argentinian teams. Maybe try and merge the lions and Cheetahs again so we can just keep it S15. But Singapore is clearly not the answer.

 

[Highlander35]

Ok then.

Japan get a Super Team.

Is that Super team any different to the Japanese national team, with a few imports?

 

[Omar Comin']

Is that Super team any different to the Japanese national team, with a few imports?

Probably not unless a handful of their players continue to play for other teams.

It will be the same deal with the Argentinian team. They're planning to only select test players that play locally from 2016.

It's obviously not ideal long term but it'd be a first step towards American and Asian (or Asia-Pacific) conferences.

 

[en_force_er]

South Africa are forcing S18 on Aus and NZ because they need to get the Spears in.

I completely agree with you, that being said THE SPEARS? They haven't been called the Spears since the failed Super Rugby bid in like 2007.

Probably not unless a handful of their players continue to play for other teams.

It will be the same deal with the Argentinian team.

Not really, the difference is Argentinians can get contracted basically wherever but the Japs have this 'job for life' philosophy.

It basically makes it immoral to change teams domestically, so if the hypothetical Super rugby side is owned by a rival company you can forget about playing for it. The only reason they can play Super rugby for Aus/NZ teams is because there isn't a clash in interest so their Japanese club sides let them come over in what is their off season.

How could you get around this club issue? Maybe if the license was GIVEN to the JRU and they gave the Top 14 sides equity, but then they wouldn't be able to have a name sponsor, which is any team's main revenue stream after TV rights nowadays, so it'd be prickly.

For the Japanese team to work creativity is required. For Singapore? All you need to a private buyer, easy. Sure, it's fiscally irresponsible and doomed to fail but it's still easy.

 

[Highlander35]

The other thing is, would Japan then have to drop out of the Asian 5 Nations, or whatever the reformed competition is?

Currently the timing of the competition is fine, given their domestic season is over, and their Soup players have release deals. But a full Super Team would take pretty much the Japanese XXIII out of contention.

I mean, they'd probably still win it, but still, to have your best side out that's, well not ideal. You pretty much saw the results of that in the SCO v SA match in June.

 

[en_force_er]

The other thing is, would Japan then have to drop out of the Asian 5 Nations, or whatever the reformed competition is?

Currently the timing of the competition is fine, given their domestic season is over, and their Soup players have release deals. But a full Super Team would take pretty much the Japanese XXIII out of contention.

I mean, they'd probably still win it, but still, to have your best side out that's, well not ideal. You pretty much saw the results of that in the SCO v SA match in June.

It'd be worth giving Japan A a run.

 

[Rebel rouser]

I completely agree with you, that being said THE SPEARS? They haven't been called the Spears since the failed Super Rugby bid in like 2007.

Heh. Fair point. My brain is still catching up. Must be said, I always did like the alliteration of the Southern Spears!

For the Japanese team to work creativity is required. For Singapore? All you need to a private buyer, easy. Sure, it's fiscally irresponsible and doomed to fail but it's still easy.

Yeah, I have to admit I wasn't familiar with all the ins and outs, but if its as you describe, there's no doubt this mentality is holding Japan's league back. Well, every problem has a solution. Japan clearly has enough money invested in rugby already, the question is how to get it properly redistributed into a single franchise without stepping on everyone's toes.

 

[en_force_er]

Yeah, I have to admit I wasn't familiar with all the ins and outs, but if its as you describe, there's no doubt this mentality is holding Japan's league back. Well, every problem has a solution. Japan clearly has enough money invested in rugby already, the question is how to get it properly redistributed into a single franchise without stepping on everyone's toes.

If we kept out pool structure (which we're not) I have no doubt we could have just started a Japanese conference. The Japanese league (and Japanese national selection) is dominated by 5 or so teams anyway, they could easily form a pool for very little added expenditure (6 or so games overseas against other conference teams a year each).

They wouldn't be up to scratch initially (and maybe never would) but it couldn't be classed as a bad thing in any way. After all, if they lose their games against over conferences only 1 team would make the finals anyway.

From it we get international flavour, to develop a new rugby nation, and whilst the teams wouldn't attract crowds they all have marquee signings that would.

 

[Brumby Jack]

SANZAR have announced that the 18th side will be decided between Japan and Singapore.

They have until the middle of August to submit their bids and a decision is expected to be made in September or October.

The bids will be assessed against the criteria of commercial value, infrastructure, geographic location, rugby readiness and ongoing sustainability.

 

[Tangawizi]

I hope Japan get it just to try & build up the game a bit more there.

Will be a weird enough 2019 RWC as it is if the Tokyo Bledisloe is anything to go by.

Singapore will need to bring a lot of 'commercial value' to the table to offset their near zero 'rugby readiness'.

 

[Omar Comin']

Commercial value = Japan
Infrastructure = Tie
Geographic location = Singapore
Rugby readiness = Japan
Ongoing sustainability = Japan

Surely it's a no brainer. The only thing that might put a spanner in the works is if South Africa outright refuse to have their teams travel to Japan as part of regular conference matches. It does seem silly to have a Japanese team in a South African conference. Wouldn't it be easier to just have 3 conferences of 6, with the Buenos Aires side added to New Zealand's conference and Japan with Australia?