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RWC: Should we be cynical

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FairWeatherAussie

Ted Fahey (11)
I'll start this off by saying that given a 30/70 chance of winning the world cup or a 70/30 chance of making the final, I would completely go for winning the keep-sake.

Two facts stand out. Firstly the winner of our pool has a quite easy run to the finals. The semi would be against either France or our nemisis England. But of the choices between; the top team in the world - New Zealand, the previous world cup winner - South Africa, or England or France, having the second two is an easy (easier) run.

The second fact is we have a top heavy team. Our first team can beat (and has beaten) anyone in the world. Unfornately we haven't got the depth to back them up. Our A' and a 1/2 team couldn't even beat Samoa, an island of a few hundred thousand inhabitants. And half of the team we played in that game were actually our first choicein their position! We just missed our super'stars'. In My Humble Opinion - Australia's first 15 - Poc, JOC (James O'Connor), Gen, Coops, Scoops and Beale, and most importantly the Fat Cat (and don't forget Rocky) can take it to anyone in the world. But for us the scary factor is that the other half our first team played against one of the 'minnow's, and couldn't.

So based on the two facts above, two things can be said. Firstly. We can't lose to Ireland! We have to play our full strength team against them. Secondly. We can't affort _any!_ injuries to our crucial players prior to the finals if we want any hope of winning.

I know this is an anathema to a lot of supporters, but should Australia take the group games, outside of ireland, 'lightly'? And should we cotton wool a few players. Obviously the argument against this is that doing so would set a negative spirit, retard our preparation, and be detrimental to the team as a whole. We should be hungry in every game and we should develop our combinations in the space leading up to the world cup/WC final. But there is an opposite argument that asks what are we actually achieving belting fringe teams anyway (well except for losing to Samoa). Wouldn't it be be better just to do the same thing in contact practise sessions (where the opposition isn't! actually trying to maim you).

Losing Mitchel was a blow to our world cup preparations. Losing Fat Cat was a disaster in my mind. His loss took us from a WC candidate to a WC hopeful. Luckily we won't actually know this until we play England/France in the SF. But imagine now if we were to lose Genia or Cooper in the preliminary stages.

We finished the super 15 main competition with arguably over a third of our first choice 15 out through injury. The core of those are already, or will be, fit again for the world cup. But to hope that our first fifteen will come through the tri-nations and then the preliminary stages of the WC without suffering injuries at the same rate, is just foolhardy. Or wishful thinking.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I think we play our best 22 in at least the Ireland and Italy games, as they are the crucial ones. Realistically though, we want to be playing our best or close to our best combinations most of the time, as continuity is important in team sports IMHO. The best teams are consistent in selection and use relatively few players over the course of a season or tournament. I don't believe in wrapping players in cotton wool, good players need game time and injuries can often be freakish and come out of the blue. There is nothing you can do to prevent that. All you can do is have adequate cover.

If we lose Genia/Cooper/Pocock etc, we are pretty much buggered, but we can't not play them to avoid them being injured.
 

Scott Allen

Trevor Allan (34)
That's a really good discussion point.

I take your point on the risk of injury but I think the only way we're going to win this World Cup is through the combination between our stars and the rest of the team playing an up tempo, expansive game. With the level of undpredictable genius form guys like Genia, Cooper and Beale team mates can struggle to read what they'll do next. The only way to reduce this unpredicatbilty for your team whilst maintaining it to bamboozle the opposition is a lot lot of practice together; otherwise you end up looking like a bunch of talented individuals playing together.

You can only get that sort of practice playing games - it really can't be simulated on the training paddock. Given there are so few games leading into the key games of the World Cup I think we need to put our best twenty two out in every game.

We should be aiming to win the World Cup, not just get close. If we lose a key player along the way that will be a significant set back but if the teamwork isn't honed to near perfection, we won't win it anyway.
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
I'm not worried and disagree with the "cotton wool" approach. It leads to undercooked players and combinations.

Nobody in their right mind would suggest that Ireland be taken lightly. They are a good side that, if firing on all cylinders, can beat almost any team that isn't at their best. However, the Wallabies really should beat an Irish team that is way past their best. O'Driscoll aside, they haven't one player that would start for the Wallabies. They peaked a few years ago and aside from beating an English team at home (they have beaten England the last 7 out of 8 since 2003) haven't beaten anyone of consequence for a few years.

Italy beat France at the end of the 6Ns. The Wallabies have had their arses handed to them when the forward 8 hasn't done the business (eg. Munster). At the very least, a combative first 8 need to be chosen to take on Italy.

Bottom line; take no chances, win the group. Rest injured tired players only and deal with injuries if they mount. Have players in form.
 

da_grubster

Ted Fahey (11)
I'll start this off by saying that given a 30/70 chance of winning the world cup or a 70/30 chance of making the final, I would completely go for winning the keep-sake.

Two facts stand out. Firstly the winner of our pool has a quite easy run to the finals. The semi would be against either France or our nemisis England. But of the choices between; the top team in the world - New Zealand, the previous world cup winner - South Africa, or England or France, having the second two is an easy (easier) run.

The second fact is we have a top heavy team. Our first team can beat (and has beaten) anyone in the world. Unfornately we haven't got the depth to back them up. Our A' and a 1/2 team couldn't even beat Samoa, an island of a few hundred thousand inhabitants. And half of the team we played in that game were actually our first choicein their position! We just missed our super'stars'. In My Humble Opinion - Australia's first 15 - Poc, JOC (James O'Connor), Gen, Coops, Scoops and Beale, and most importantly the Fat Cat (and don't forget Rocky) can take it to anyone in the world. But for us the scary factor is that the other half our first team played against one of the 'minnow's, and couldn't.

So based on the two facts above, two things can be said. Firstly. We can't lose to Ireland! We have to play our full strength team against them. Secondly. We can't affort _any!_ injuries to our crucial players prior to the finals if we want any hope of winning.

I know this is an anathema to a lot of supporters, but should Australia take the group games, outside of ireland, 'lightly'? And should we cotton wool a few players. Obviously the argument against this is that doing so would set a negative spirit, retard our preparation, and be detrimental to the team as a whole. We should be hungry in every game and we should develop our combinations in the space leading up to the world cup/WC final. But there is an opposite argument that asks what are we actually achieving belting fringe teams anyway (well except for losing to Samoa). Wouldn't it be be better just to do the same thing in contact practise sessions (where the opposition isn't! actually trying to maim you).

Losing Mitchel was a blow to our world cup preparations. Losing Fat Cat was a disaster in my mind. His loss took us from a WC candidate to a WC hopeful. Luckily we won't actually know this until we play England/France in the SF. But imagine now if we were to lose Genia or Cooper in the preliminary stages.

We finished the super 15 main competition with arguably over a third of our first choice 15 out through injury. The core of those are already, or will be, fit again for the world cup. But to hope that our first fifteen will come through the tri-nations and then the preliminary stages of the WC without suffering injuries at the same rate, is just foolhardy. Or wishful thinking.

You have highlighted the major issue for the Wobs. The have 10 tests in 13 weeks if they want to win the world cup. As shown against Samoa, Australia cannot confidently reach too far into their squad to rest, rotate and freshen up the team. It puts a massive strain on their top players and if I was a Wallaby fan, that would be my biggest concern due to too much rugby of the top guys which will limit theior effectiveness or injury robs them of a place in a crucial match.

The last 3 of those 10 games are the most important and Australia's inconsistency is the major problem for them to win 3 pressure matches in a row, especially if the last two are England and then NZ.

Personally, I would love a NZ-Eng final. That would be immense! I have cheered England on, in two world cup finals now and I really dont want to make it a 3rd!
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
O'Driscoll aside, they haven't one player that would start for the Wallabies.

That's harsh. They seem to really rate this Sean O'Brien guy but I haven't seen a lot of him. Rocky's not in great form so he could be better than him. Jamie Heaslip is better than McCalman as well. I think the Irish will go close to beating us, they have such a poor record at WC that I get this feeling they'll do well in this one. Their demolition of England in the final 6Ns game this year was very impressive.
 

tigerland12

John Thornett (49)
That's harsh. They seem to really rate this Sean O'Brien guy but I haven't seen a lot of him. Rocky's not in great form so he could be better than him. Jamie Heaslip is better than McCalman as well. I think the Irish will go close to beating us, they have such a poor record at WC that I get this feeling they'll do well in this one. Their demolition of England in the final 6Ns game this year was very impressive.

Yeah I agree with Heaslip, can't really comment on O'Brien cause I haven't seen him. Surley Paul O'Connell is better then Simmons currently. I still can't see Ireland doing much at this WC, they just seem to lack the same thing Wales and Scotland do. I don't know what it is, but none of those sides seem to have it!
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Here's a thing. England has the wood on us. France has the wood on England. We have to beat New Zealand to win the thing. So: throw the game to Ireland in the group! We come second, play and beat New Zealand in the knockouts, France demolishes England, we play France in the final!

Bon, non?
 

da_grubster

Ted Fahey (11)
Blasphemy. Burn the witch!


:)

well, I suppose mainly as I live in London so love the seeing the AB's play at Twickers and know a bit about the England game. I actually think they are going to have a very good world cup and will be a big threat to anyone in a knockout game.

As the wife is English, I supported them in '03 (Only as I didnt want the Wobs to win another!) and '07 (only as i didnt want the boks to win another!) but now I have a half NZ/half English daughter although she did have her AB babygrow on 5 days after being born, watching another victory for the ABS at HQ ;-)
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
Here's a thing. England has the wood on us. France has the wood on England. We have to beat New Zealand to win the thing. So: throw the game to Ireland in the group! We come second, play and beat New Zealand in the knockouts, France demolishes England, we play France in the final!

Bon, non?

Pure genius, if we drop a game in the pool stages i'm going to claim this was our plan.
 

FairWeatherAussie

Ted Fahey (11)
I'm not worried and disagree with the "cotton wool" approach. It leads to undercooked players and combinations.

Nobody in their right mind would suggest that Ireland be taken lightly. They are a good side that, if firing on all cylinders, can beat almost any team that isn't at their best. However, the Wallabies really should beat an Irish team that is way past their best. O'Driscoll aside, they haven't one player that would start for the Wallabies. They peaked a few years ago and aside from beating an English team at home (they have beaten England the last 7 out of 8 since 2003) haven't beaten anyone of consequence for a few years.

Italy beat France at the end of the 6Ns. The Wallabies have had their arses handed to them when the forward 8 hasn't done the business (eg. Munster). At the very least, a combative first 8 need to be chosen to take on Italy.

Bottom line; take no chances, win the group. Rest injured tired players only and deal with injuries if they mount. Have players in form.

If I wasn't an ozzie, I'd actually take a punt on Ireland making the final at 10/1 odds. If they did actually beat us in the pool, then they have the same run to the finals. Having already beaten England in the 6 nations you'd say they were a good chance of progress past the semis.
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
That's harsh. They seem to really rate this Sean O'Brien guy but I haven't seen a lot of him. Rocky's not in great form so he could be better than him. Jamie Heaslip is better than McCalman as well. I think the Irish will go close to beating us, they have such a poor record at WC that I get this feeling they'll do well in this one. Their demolition of England in the final 6Ns game this year was very impressive.

Yep, good point on Heaslip whom I overlooked and is a very fine player. O'Brien will probably not start if Ferris is fit. Kidney has favored a 6,7,8 of Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip until Ferris knee gave way again. I'd still take a healthy Rocky over either Ferris or SOB.
 
W

What2040

Guest
well, I suppose mainly as I live in London so love the seeing the AB's play at Twickers and know a bit about the England game. I actually think they are going to have a very good world cup and will be a big threat to anyone in a knockout game.

As the wife is English, I supported them in '03 (Only as I didnt want the Wobs to win another!) and '07 (only as i didnt want the boks to win another!) but now I have a half NZ/half English daughter although she did have her AB babygrow on 5 days after being born, watching another victory for the ABS at HQ ;-)

Come on mate - Aussie pride and all that - Divorce the wife and adopt the child out
 

Joe Mac

Arch Winning (36)
I think we need game time not only for the 1st XV but for the fringe players as well to get their combinations right. That may be that you start every game with your 1st XV on the paddock and if we are streaks ahead sub in your bench but like Link said, Super Xv or WC, you need to utilise the entire squad...

Agreed that Ireland and Italy should have our full strength showing, at least until the game is wrapped up...
 
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