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Jim Lenehan (48)
These are things that Schmidt will develop I'm sure
RWC QF 3 IRE v ARG (Millenium Stadium) 18th Oct 2300 AEDT
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Dewald Nel
Cyril Towers (30)
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Jim Lenehan (48)
Was just looking at this list. There's a helluva generational change gonna be required for Ireland. Never realised how old heaslip was
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
I really thought Ireland is one of the favourates. But last night they choke if thats the right word. The Pumas dominate just about everything. I just wish Meyer watched this test and watch the way the Pumas rugby have improved since joining the 3 Nations. Usually they love to kick but yesterday they ran it from everywhere and keep the Irish on the backfoot.
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
Nope, but I'm about to finish it.
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
You're starting to try people's patience with this, and if you don't want to risk getting your feelings hurt again, best put an end to it. But look -- I'll try help you, but I fear it's a losing proposition. But I'm also done playing with you here.
(Proviso: If you are not Quick Hands or interested in this stupid argument, just scroll past this.)
YOU'RE WRONG, AND HERE IS WHY:
Go back to the original argument, and the point was that the Premiership, Pro 12 and Top 14 generally play in worse weather conditions than Super Rugby. I said "generally," and I made the comparison to all of Super Rugby, not just New Zealand. I said to make a fair comparison, you'd want to play all of Super Rugby in Invercargill between June and August, because the winter weather in Invercargill is more similar to the winter weather in the UK and Ireland. That's undeniably true. Why all of Super Rugby? Because there are 15 teams in that competition, and there are far more teams than that in the UK and Ireland and parts of France that play in crap weather conditions -- more teams in the NH competitions play in crap weather conditions than Super Rugby teams do in the SH.
But in that same post and follow-up discussion, it was also stated that some professional clubs do manage to effect a running/passing/offloading game -- Leinster, Glasgow, Harlequins to name three. So weather isn't much of an excuse, and we're not accepting it.
One point of concession, which was done pages ago: The south of France does have better weather, but the Top 14 just has other issues for why French rugby is crap right now. But those reasons are a different discussion. The north and northwest coast of France have conditions more similar to the UK, and go back to see the post on the shite condition of Stade de France, where Test matches have been called off because of weather.
Now, you said my point isn't true, because it rains in the North Island of New Zealand. My question: So what? What does that have to do with the winter weather in the UK, Ireland and northern France? What does that have to do with the point itself? Because unless all of Super Rugby was played in the North Island, your point is pointless. In my original point I said all of Super Rugby, and you want to just exclude 2/3 of it (Australia and South Africa) to make your point, and that also ignores all the games New Zealand teams play outside of New Zealand or under the roof in Dunedin. You don't get to make up your own criteria when you're taking on someone else's argument. If you want to argue the north island of New Zealand has the worst weather in rugby, go ahead, but that's a different discussion and beside the point, because it was already stated the weather isn't an excuse.
The same goes for the population comment; so what? What does the North Island having more people than the South Island have to do with winter weather conditions in the UK or Ireland? It has fuck all to do with it. There are about as many people in Wales as the North Island, and that makes no difference to the weather, because population doesn't affect weather. And if you're trying to argue that kids grow up catching and passing in bad weather, again, what the fuck is your point? We already said some teams manage to do that in the shit weather in the UK and Ireland, so it can be done and it isn't an excuse. So we're saying weather isn't an excuse, and you're saying "UH-UH, YOU'RE WRONG, WEATHER ISN'T AN EXCUSE!" That's what children do.
You can't just pick and choose new criteria to make a different point and declare "I win," that's not how arguments work. Here's the model of your argument: Someone says they don't like mushrooms on their pizza; you say they're wrong because peppers are good and you enjoy action movies.
It could literally monsoon in the North Island 360 days a year, and it wouldn't change the point that in the UK and Ireland, over winter, they play in snow and sleet and muddy, heavy pitches, and for years now that's been used as an excuse to play a collision-and-territory-based style of rugby, only opening up their game when the sun shines or when they play on a hybrid or artificial pitch. And it wouldn't change the fact that the Australian and South African teams play in much better weather conditions, and teams who play in better weather conditions tend to run and pass and offload more, because the ball isn't a greasy bar of soap.
And elsewhere in this discussion thread many of us have already talked about ways to improve attacking skills, so we're not just saying it's all down to weather (which was already denied as an excuse). So if you want to clarify your point, do it in a private message instead of derailing this thread with more off-topic BS, because right now it seems you only want to take one element of what's being said -- an element that was stated wasn't an excuse -- and blow that up to us whinging that weather being the reason NH rugby isn't in the semifinals. That isn't useful or helpful, and you wouldn't want to leave people thinking someone who does such a thing is just a gloating ass-hat who enjoys being a dick. That's how feelings end up getting hurt.
So yeah, you really need to continue this, do it in a PM. But if you try to say weather isn't an excuse, I'm ignoring that because that point was made by me and others from the outset.
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
You should see some of the Irish press; choke is too nice a term. A thorough, noose-necked asphyxiation while wearing cement shoes is more like it.
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
As far as rugby nerds go, Jackman is up there with the best of them. He's always worth paying attention to. (Am curious what you googled to find that story, though, since I'm pretty sure you don't subscribe to an Irish podcast, or Irish anything.)
This:
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
From the Rugby Banter page.
Well I thought it was funny.
Well I thought it was funny.
Cardiffblue
Jim Lenehan (48)
I don't think Ireland or Wales need to panic. Just look at the Argentinians and how quick they've turned things around. It's not the culture or weather that needs to change. IMHO It's just getting the ball wide and trusting the wingers. For too long wings have been used as at best kick chasers or as inside battering rams, at worst decoration . Argies are copying Nz. Mobile forwards out wide to ensure wing isn't isolated. Ireland looked good when they got the ball wide and did the same. A side can gain same ground using the wings as they can from box kicks and garryowens. We ll learn and the games will become more exciting
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
From the Rugby Banter page.
Well I thought it was funny.
Is that Earls? I watched the game again last night with my wife, and we noticed how the Argies were all over Keith Earls every time he got near the ball.
the plastic paddy
John Solomon (38)
Hardly surprising, he was the only player in the Irish back line they had to worry about. They could have give Daverage Kearney half the width of the pitch in a one on one with Ayerza and he still wouldn't have had the pace or footwork to score.
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
Yeah, I'm not convinced by the arguments that because players are grow up not employing a full range of skills that they can't develop them. At the club level, Leinster under Schmidt (and possibly under Dempsey), Glasgow under Townsend, Quinns, Bath, Wasps, and maybe a handful of others are getting there. And at Test level, a flashing sign that says Los Pumas should be held up every time a pundit or coach says their side can't develop those skills -- Argentina was a forwards-first, Munster-like team for decades, and somehow they managed to turn it around in a few years and with a fraction of the money and resources. So screw the excuses.
Game plans really need to adapt, though. The Top 14 and the Premiership have been in an arms race over size for about half a decade, trying to get larger and larger players and selling the game on bigger and bigger collisions. Their Test sides show what their club game has wrought. Listening to a podcast the other day they noted how almost all the teams in this past weekend's Premiership games play like England does, and that's clearly not a winning style (although the podcasters seemed to like it). I'm not sure if this is the case, but my sense is Wales and their clubs are more swayed by the English and French club scene, particularly because those clubs keep poaching Welsh players. Which brings me back to that George North run against South Africa that left me shrugging:
If you pause and break that down (cleaner video here), North has about a 20-meter-wide channel down the wing with only JP Pietersen to work through, and maybe FDP behind Pietersen. On the commentary Shane Williams says "A lot of room to run here -- just gotta go straight!" As soon as he says "just gotta go straight," North angles in and runs away from all the space and into 8 South African defenders, looking for the collision over meters. I really don't understand in what world a winger taking on eight forwards all clumped up with another five or six Welsh forwards is better than taking on a single Saffer winger and maybe a hidden half-back or two way back in the distance. We know North can wear the likes of Israel Folau around like a backpack; do that to Pietersen and run for space down his channel, don't impede all your offensive momentum, especially when you're concussion-prone. It seemed like a very Premiershipy, collision-first-type move.
After watching Argentina-Ireland again, two things really stood out to me (at least about Ireland's game): First, they really missed those five players. Ireland's most effective game is based on Sexton turning the defense around with his precision kicking for territory, with the backs putting loads of pressure on and then the forwards slowing down opposition ball or getting a turnover. No Sexton, so the precision reading of the field is out. No O'Mahony or O'Brien or O'Connell, their best pressure forwards, so that strength was gone. The Kearneys couldn't seem to get going, and none of the backs really provided any pressure on the kicking game, especially in the first half -- possibly because they were spooked by Argentina getting so wide so quickly and were afraid to leave any extra space uncovered (not that it mattered). Their best on-field defensive coordinator, Jared Payne, was sitting out with a broken foot, and no one else seemed to be able to communicate and direct traffic like they needed. That left too many defenders stuck playing narrow, piled in at the rucks, which allowed Argentina to get the ball wide at will through forwards who can pass and offload as well as truck it up the middle.
Second, and most importantly, they didn't have an effective-enough back-up plan. Hindsight and all that, but Henderson might have been more effective at 6 with Donnacha Ryan starting at lock -- that would have provided more pressure. Murphy had his moments, but Ruddock generally provides more O'Mahony-like grunt. Murray seemed to still want to play the territory game without the forwards to back that game up, and he wasn't always moving the ball out of the rucks quickly or effectively enough, the first runners being hit static or at a trot instead of a full run. Earls was covered like flypaper and couldn't be released; only Henshaw was getting some meters at the gainline, but the forwards were too narrow and not running the angles like they did against France to stretch the defense apart. After Bowe went down, Fitzgerald added some footwork that helped open up a little space where slow, static ball couldn't; that got them their first try, and it was Fitzgerald's footwork to break a tackle and his offload to Jordi Murphy that got them their second try.
And until the last ten minutes, they were still in the game. Especially in the second half, they started to move the ball quicker, and were able to take advantage of what Fitzgerald brought in order to find or break into some space. The ball speed also allowed their backs to get more involved, and they were organizing their defense better, forcing Argentina into the narrow channels for a while instead of always being able to get the ball out wide. They put fewer players into the rucks and got more reward from it (a crucial one was Rory Best jackling the ball out on his own against three counter-ruckers.) If that was a a 6N side, they might have been able to pull it out playing like they were. But there were about four brain fades right around the 67th minute, including Murray's knock-on at the base of the scrum, and Argentina punished those mistakes like an All Black with a stick.
What that tells you is that a combination of passing pace, footwork, taking an occasional offload risk, and defensive line speed left Ireland in a much better place when their kicking-plus-forward-pressure game was taken away. Hit runners at pace, and if you must go around the corner, change the point of direction ASAP. In other words, they need to incorporate what the SH has been doing for years. They've shown they're capable of playing that style, and even did it a bit against a hapless France. But they didn't seem comfortable with it under pressure in a high-tempo game, probably because they haven't played it enough -- which speaks to Joe Schmidt's comments about inexperience, but that also speaks to how they didn't get that experience prior to the RWC.
And there are reasons for that: Test sides don't get a lot of time to bed in different game plans, and like Jackman pointed out, there's so much pressure to win the 6N that once a side finds a winning strategy there's little impetus to move away from that. The World Cup ought to be that impetus. Do a Scotland or an Argentina and sacrifice a few matches in order to develop not just squad depth, but strategy depth, and get all of the squad comfortable playing a variety of game plans in one game (exactly what the All Blacks did in that heartbreaking last-second win over Ireland a couple years ago).
I know many don't take the Pro 12 seriously, but that league may be better suited to experimenting and trying out new styles than the Premiership or Top 14. There's not as much money in or attention on it, so those teams would be under less pressure if they weren't just grinding out wins all the time. My sense is once Scotland brings their new style to the 6N and starts threatening or even taking scalps, some of the other teams will take notice. (But I wouldn't expect much from the club-dominated English and French scenes.)
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
Yeah, Earls wasn't the only one they had to worry about.
Henshaw was regularly dragging defenders over on their backsides, instead of landing on his own.
BabyBlueElephant
Darby Loudon (17)
Surprised Fitz isn't being mentioned here. Without him we would be been stuck on 3 pointers.
Only just getting over this. I wonder what the team will do from here. On reflection the northern hemisphere isn't in such a disarray ad first looked. Scotland shouldve beaten the RC winners, a team who came 5th in the 6N and are often perennial winners of the wooden spoon. Injuries ruined Wales and Ireland even more so. England just for some reason went back on their game plan of the past three years which I believe would've taken them to a semi final at least. France and Italy? The less said the better.
Things aren't all gloom and doom and I hope Ireland now aim for three in a row at 6N time and winning the tour against SA at home thin June.
Only just getting over this. I wonder what the team will do from here. On reflection the northern hemisphere isn't in such a disarray ad first looked. Scotland shouldve beaten the RC winners, a team who came 5th in the 6N and are often perennial winners of the wooden spoon. Injuries ruined Wales and Ireland even more so. England just for some reason went back on their game plan of the past three years which I believe would've taken them to a semi final at least. France and Italy? The less said the better.
Things aren't all gloom and doom and I hope Ireland now aim for three in a row at 6N time and winning the tour against SA at home thin June.
mxyzptlk
Colin Windon (37)
Heh. I almost mentioned him, but held it at Henshaw because Connacht seems like neutral territory between Munster and Leinster. Short of scoring 7 tries, I'm not sure what Fitzgerald could do to warrant selection for some. Same goes for Zebo, or anyone with the last name Kearney.
I feel bad for Trimble.
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