RWC Final - New Zealand v South Africa 29/10/23, 0800 NZDT

[KiwiM]

So:

Same Front Row
Barrett, Lord
Finau
Papalii/Harmon/Cane
Ardie
Roigard
Dmac
Telea
Jordie
Rieko
Narawa/Reece
Jordan/Stevenson

All to play for in Super rugby next year.

See my edits above.

 

[Brumby Runner]

‘come off enough’?!

There is no such thing. The Law is to release. Ardie either released or he didn’t and Barnes knows he fucked up when he sees the replay.

I don’t blame the loss on Barnes but it would have been nice to have been gifted 3 points as well. Around the 79min mark would have been great LOL

Jordie taking the high risk, low reward attempted penalty goal two minutes from the end was a mistake imo. Better to have put the ball over the sideline with a 5 - 10m lineout and go again. The AB's maul was almost legally unstoppable at that time and most likely would have earned a penalty close to the sticks if a try wasn't scored. Anyway, that was my take on the finish to the game.

 

[Braveheart81]

Jordie taking the high risk, low reward attempted penalty goal two minutes from the end was a mistake imo. Better to have put the ball over the sideline with a 5 - 10m lineout and go again. The AB's maul was almost legally unstoppable at that time and most likely would have earned a penalty close to the sticks if a try wasn't scored. Anyway, that was my take on the finish to the game.

I think that was an easy decision. It wasn't that difficult a shot. South Africa's discipline was generally good, defence excellent and referees have been hesitant to whistle penalties in the last couple of minutes.

It was a better than 50% chance at winning the RWC. You've got to take it.

 

[John S]

I think whichever decision they made, and it didn't come off, it was the wrong one. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

But it probably wasn't that kick that lost it - it was their poor discipline in the first half leading to 9 points off the boot.

 

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pretty much me every monday after a wob game

 

[PaarlBok]

Found this on Rugbypass. Whoah!

Robertson won’t be able to call on Dane Coles, who is retiring, or superstars Brodie Retallick, Aaron Smith, and Sam Whitelock, who made France 2023 their All Blacks swansong.

Another group of senior players are unlikely to be seen again, at least in the short term, as they fall foul of eligibility rules.

Beauden Barrett (Toyota in Japan), Richie Mo’unga, Shannon Frizell (both Toshiba Brave Lupus in Japan), Leicester Fainga’anuku (Toulon in France) and Nepo Laulala (Toulouse in France) are moving abroad.

How the hell can you let Frizell go????

Hi Blue, hoop dit gaan goed.

Retallick and Whitelock is big losses.

Bit unsure about the Bokke. Vermeulen definitely (coming to the Stormers as player/coach). Our young guns like Willemse, Moodie, RG, exct look ready to take over.

 

[Blue]

Jordie taking the high risk, low reward attempted penalty goal two minutes from the end was a mistake imo. Better to have put the ball over the sideline with a 5 - 10m lineout and go again. The AB's maul was almost legally unstoppable at that time and most likely would have earned a penalty close to the sticks if a try wasn't scored. Anyway, that was my take on the finish to the game.

Could argue that at that point they were knackered and out of ideas The scramble got them the whole game except for the one slip-up where Talea broke free. Underatand the decision 100% and he nails those regularly.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Could argue that at that point they were knackered and out of ideas The scramble got them the whole game except for the one slip-up where Talea broke free. Underatand the decision 100% and he nails those regularly.

I think that was an easy decision. It wasn't that difficult a shot. South Africa's discipline was generally good, defence excellent and referees have been hesitant to whistle penalties in the last couple of minutes.

It was a better than 50% chance at winning the RWC. You've got to take it.

My thinking is that, by the end of a hard fought match and that being the final of a RWC to boot with all the pressure of winning or losing the game, that kick was probably more in the 25% probability of success level.

However, I can also imagine the uproar among NZ fans had they gone for the corner and still not won the game. Taking the kick was a safer bet so far as fan satisfaction is concerned, but imo a lesser chance of actually winning the game at that point.

 

[Braveheart81]

My thinking is that, by the end of a hard fought match and that being the final of a RWC to boot with all the pressure of winning or losing the game, that kick was probably more in the 25% probability of success level.

However, I can also imagine the uproar among NZ fans had they gone for the corner and still not won the game. Taking the kick was a safer bet so far as fan satisfaction is concerned, but imo a lesser chance of actually winning the game at that point.

I still disagree. It was a much easier kick than the one Pollard nailed a week earlier to send South Africa to the final.

You've scored 11 points in 70-odd minutes. You've got to take the shot on offer. 38 metres out, 12 metres in from touch is way more than 25% success rate regardless of the match situation.

 

[zer0]

You're carrying a red card for most of the match but riding momentum after scoring a try (and crossing the line once more). Fuck that noise. The red card makes you the massive underdog. Kick it to the corner and get stuck in. The Boks were wobbling and staring down the very real prospect of losing with a one man advantage and were without their get-out-of-jail-free scrum ace.

Smith being off the field at that point, but old man Beauden remaining, was far from ideal, though not insurmountable.

 

[Rob42]

I still disagree. It was a much easier kick than the one Pollard nailed a week earlier to send South Africa to the final.

You've scored 11 points in 70-odd minutes. You've got to take the shot on offer. 38 metres out, 12 metres in from touch is way more than 25% success rate regardless of the match situation.

And, comments from the Stan team were that the field was maybe 4 m shorter than the standard, so that kick was somewhat shorter than it may have appeared.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I felt we were in that period of the match where you have to treat every penalty as being your last. Taking the shot was 100% the correct decision IMO.

 

[Bullrush]

A game can’t go much worse for a team in the GF. Contentious calls and non-calls, playing a man down for most of the game and still keeping SA try-less and unable to score at all in the 2nd half. There were only 2 moments in the game where SA looked wven remotely close to scoring a try and one was after the ref whistle had already blown and the players near tye ball hadn’t heard it.….if it wasn’t the RWC Final, it would have been a game that would almost count as a morale-building win.


However, it WAS the RWC and we lost so we just have to suck it up, like we have in the past, rebuild and move on to the next phase of All Black rugby.

The only solace is no-one can ever again talk about how biased refs are towards the ABs or how we never get called for shit.

 

[Bullrush]

Sure, but that the nuance is how you describe what is a binary decision. Barnes saying you didn't release and Ardie saying yes I did, look there doesn't actually get you any closer to a resolution.

From the camera angle we see (and in slow motion) we can see a release. From Barnes' angle, who knows? I think the point made is pretty clear that if he wants to be certain he's not going to get penalised he has to "come off" the tackled player more. I don't think that is at all unreasonable. It's communicated very clearly from Barnes to Savea.

It's like saying whether there was a double movement in a player scoring a try. We all know that the law is whether or not a player released the ball immediately but the description of what they did after they were tackled is how you arrive at the decision of whether or not they released.

Barnes didn't see the replay. He clearly says so on the broadcast.

The difference between releasing, as required by the law, and ‘coming off enough’ is the difference between winning possession and giving 3 points to the opposition.

If a ref can go back 5 phases and reverse a try for an incorrect ‘no knock-on’ call (despite it being outside what the laws apparently allow), it seems ridiculous Barnes didn’t do the same in this instance. Or the TMO. Given his willingness to just jump in whenever he felt like.

 

[Tomthumb]

Ian Foster still blaming the refs I see. Shows the measure of the man

 

[Dan54]

What have I missed where he is still blaming ref? Must of been in Aus press and we missed it here? I read where he asked questions in the report to WR (World Rugby), but that's normal practice for almost every test coach, they do a report type thing fo WR (World Rugby)/Refs. I heard Owens talking about it on one of his podcasts, how they get feedback almost all the time, and why at times WR (World Rugby) makes statements about things after games. Happens at Super level too I sure I pretty sure.

 

[Dctarget]

What have I missed where he is still blaming ref? Must of been in Aus press and we missed it here? I read where he asked questions in the report to WR (World Rugby) (World Rugby), but that's normal practice for almost every test coach, they do a report type thing fo WR (World Rugby) (World Rugby)/Refs. I heard Owens talking about it on one of his podcasts, how they get feedback almost all the time, and why at times WR (World Rugby) (World Rugby) makes statements about things after games. Happens at Super level too I sure I pretty sure.

they just lodged a complaint about the refereeing..

 

[Derpus]

The difference between releasing, as required by the law, and ‘coming off enough’ is the difference between winning possession and giving 3 points to the opposition.

If a ref can go back 5 phases and reverse a try for an incorrect ‘no knock-on’ call (despite it being outside what the laws apparently allow), it seems ridiculous Barnes didn’t do the same in this instance. Or the TMO. Given his willingness to just jump in whenever he felt like.

They shouldn't be able to go back 5 phases to reverse a try, is the actual reasonable thing to do.

The hyper focus on the lead up to a try creates a weird system where standards are higher right before the most exciting part of the game, maximizing the chances of an anti-climax.

 

[Bullrush]

They shouldn't be able to go back 5 phases to reverse a try, is the actual reasonable thing to do.

The hyper focus on the lead up to a try creates a weird system where standards are higher right before the most exciting part of the game, maximizing the chances of an anti-climax.

And yet this happened. When Faf de Klerk knocked on at the base of one of the SA scrums, the TMO didn't step in to correct Barnes.

The other ridiculous thing about that 'knock-on' call is that the ball was knocked on due to illegal play at the line-out hence the final call, I believe, was a penalty against the Boks.

I might be wrong but I've read that the TMO is only supposed to go back 2 phases from a try and yet this wasn't adhered to.

It was such a cluster-fuck of refereeing decisions that all, in my admittedly one-eyed view, went against the ABs.

Now I have a pretty firm stance that you need to play better than the refs. The ABs still had their opportunities to win and SA were good enough to win but there will always be human error and sometimes that's just the way rugby goes. It's something I have learned to truly appreciate sport because it helps keep things in perspective. It's just a game and learning to deal with disappointment and loss is a part of life.

In saying all of that, there is no reason not to learn from mistakes and as much as some of the ABs will have a chance to learn and get better, so should World Rugby and the referees. When one of the main talking points at the end of the global showpiece is the officiating instead of the play on the ground, you gotta think that there is room for improvement.

At least a couple of commentators said before the RWC that they feared the refs would play too large of a role. I thought that they were being a bit pessimistic and I hoped players had adjusted by now to the lower tackle requirements and positive rugby would prevail.

 

[Slim 293]

I don't think I've commented in this thread, but my 2c for anyone who cares...

Barnes did an excellent job in the final, and I can't fault his performance.

His retirement is a big loss for world rugby as he's been on the premier refs who I've always enjoyed officiating games.

I thought the AB's were going to win that in the second half, and there were some incredible individual performances - Retallick and Savea in particular, but the Boks were better disciplined and defended admirably.