RWC Final - New Zealand v South Africa 29/10/23, 0800 NZDT

[Dan54]

Yeah, 24 hours after he criticized him, fanning the flames

I get fans criticizing refs, as Bullrush mentioned above fans do the same to everyone . But coaches really need to be better than that, their words carry weight with fans

Refs don't hold post match press conferences to talk about the coaches bad selections or tactics

I disagree, I think the press should also not do it. Players also do it, I not sure if you remember what happened with Raynal etc after Aus test? I can almost understand ,but not condone players and coaches while they still fired up after game. We heard it from almost every losing team from QF onwards (something maybe a lot here didn't listen too)
I heard O'Keeffe saying he would like refs to be able to explain in a press conference, but would like them held on say a Wednesday, so they have had chance to review the game etc. I actually wonder if it should be same with players and coaches etc, wait for 24 hours or so.

 

[Dan54]

I will honestly say ,I get annoyed with TMO's stuff ups. For example, TMO overuled Smith's try for a knock on by Ardie at lineout, that was more than 2 phases before the try? That is fairly hard to excuse.
Why I love watching NPC here in NZ, TMO hardly involved, seen it I think a couple of times in the games I have been at live in the Naki this year, have seen refs maybe see some decisions differently to me, but I know what I prefer, and it's not the WC version.

 

[The Red Baron]

Over it. No matter who is doing it. Yes and Saffas and Aussies probably the worst.

These guys have an IMPOSSIBLE job. And now you have the bunker getting into the act at every turn.

Guaranteed after every game one side will be pissed. Simple law of averages.

Get used to it. Not changing any time soon.

It's this part here that that annoys me the most. There just doesn't seem to be any clear rules of engagement with regards to the bunker. I'm certain that a few onfield refs wouldn't be particularly pleased about constant interruptions from the bunker either.

 

[Bullrush]

‘come off enough’?!

There is no such thing. The Law is to release. Ardie either released or he didn’t and Barnes knows he fucked up when he sees the replay.

I don’t blame the loss on Barnes but it would have been nice to have been gifted 3 points as well. Around the 79min mark would have been great LOL

 

[Rebel man]

I will honestly say ,I get annoyed with TMO's stuff ups. For example, TMO overuled Smith's try for a knock on by Ardie at lineout, that was more than 2 phases before the try? That is fairly hard to excuse.
Why I love watching NPC here in NZ, TMO hardly involved, seen it I think a couple of times in the games I have been at live in the Naki this year, have seen refs maybe see some decisions differently to me, but I know what I prefer, and it's not the WC version.

it was clear and obvious that they knocked on, while I am not a big fan of the TMO it would have been a travesty if that try stood

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ there were four rucks not to mention a "no knock-on" call between the lineout & Smith scoring. Not that it matters because they scored not long after but TMO clearly exceeded his mandate on that one.

Edit: see p.3 of the attachment under "Law 11".

I'm not overly bothered by the Savea penalty either: even if Barnes knew he'd got it wrong once the replay was shown he had to stick with his decision, the Laws don't allow him to do otherwise.

The one that pisses me off is the Frizell YC. The Law says you can't target the lower leg, he clearly didn't so no YC in my book & note that Barnes, in explaining why the card stayed at Yellow, says as much. SA kicked two penalties while SF was in the bin. Edit: that call, too, is on Foley not Barnes.

 

[Dan54]

it was clear and obvious that they knocked on, while I am not a big fan of the TMO it would have been a travesty if that try stood

I not arguing Rebel, what I am saying the TMO protocols are 2 phases, how far back do you think is fair? Genuine question, as thei had one didn't have a bearing on the game.

 

[PaarlBok]

Boks WC achievements
1. The most WC's
2. 50% success rate.
3. Boks never lost a WC final
4. Only Boks and All Blacks could defend the title
5. Only Boks could lose a pool match and win the title.
6. Its the first time that a team played against the top 6 ranks team in one tournament.
7. All Blacks only lost against the Boks in the finals.
8. Every time the Boks won the WC, the Cheetahs won the CC

 

[RugbyReg]

The full quote is “Sorry, mate, I didn’t see the replay, I thought you stayed on him, I didn’t see it come off enough.” Sounds like he's saying he got it wrong to me.



If I could I'd give each sentence a Like of its own...

Of course it does to you. Ardie says something about the replay on the screen. Barnes said sorry (as much for not responding to Ardie because, you know, he was moving on to his next decision), says he didn't see the replay and then re-affirmed why he made the decision:

"I thought you stayed on him, I didn’t see it come off enough"

Which is why he penalised him.

There's no grassy knoll in this. Stop the whinging

 

[KiwiM]

Congrats Boks fans - deserved winners. Knock-out rugby masters.

Proud of the ABs - they gave it everything but just came up a little bit short.

I thought a couple of ongoing AB weaknesses were exposed. Discipline and kicking game.

The ABs under Foster (and the back end of Hansen) haven't had a strong enough kicking game. The likes of Carter and Dagg were so useful at flipping field position and getting the ABs either out from under pressure or applying pressure on the opposition.

As a general rule this AB backline simply doesn't have the cattle to do so. Neither Mo'unga nor Beauden are strong kickers - and it's not Aaron Smith's strength either though he's the best of the 3.

For most of the game the Boks kicking game was far superior to the ABs.

The ABs forwards even a man down - did enough for the ABs to win (which is a phenomenal effort) but the backs couldn't capitalise.

Foster did a great job in this World Cup but this game also highlighted why he isn't coming back - he was never able to curb the ABs discipline problem or address the kicking game issues.

As for the game itself - I think we can all agree there is far too much TMO involvement - it doesn't help the spectacle at all. How much value is the TMO actually adding? I'm not sure a great deal.

Excited for 2024 and the Razor era.

 

[Blue]

Congrats Boks fans - deserved winners. Knock-out rugby masters.

Proud of the ABs - they gave it everything but just came up a little bit short.

I thought a couple of ongoing AB weaknesses were exposed. Discipline and kicking game.

The ABs under Foster (and the back end of Hansen) haven't had a strong enough kicking game. The likes of Carter and Dagg were so useful at flipping field position and getting the ABs either out from under pressure or applying pressure on the opposition.

As a general rule this AB backline simply doesn't have the cattle to do so. Neither Mo'unga nor Beauden are strong kickers - and it's not Aaron Smith's strength either though he's the best of the 3.

For most of the game the Boks kicking game was far superior to the ABs.

The ABs forwards even a man down - did enough for the ABs to win (which is a phenomenal effort) but the backs couldn't capitalise.

Foster did a great job in this World Cup but this game also highlighted why he isn't coming back - he was never able to curb the ABs discipline problem or address the kicking game issues.

As for the game itself - I think we can all agree there is far too much TMO involvement - it doesn't help the spectacle at all. How much value is the TMO actually adding? I'm not sure a great deal.

Excited for 2024 and the Razor era.

Thanks KiwiM

What an epic fight it was. Still dumfounded how we hung on.

Looking forward to what Razor will change. So who is he losing due to retirement or sabatical? Mouanga, Whitelock, Retalick, Ardie, who else? Will have a challenge between building and winning. If anyone can do it, it's him.

 

[KiwiM]

Thanks KiwiM

What an epic fight it was. Still dumfounded how we hung on.

Looking forward to what Razor will change. So who is he losing due to retirement or sabatical? Mouanga, Whitelock, Retalick, Ardie, who else? Will have a challenge between building and winning. If anyone can do it, it's him.

Ardie as I understand is only missing Super so will be back for the 2024 test season

I would imagine Razor will talk Mo'unga into coming back - I doubt Mo'unga wants to end his career like that and I'm sure will want to play AB rugby under Razor.

Aaron Smith is going, as is Frizell (who may come back) as well as Coles and Laulala.

I would suggest the locks are gonna be the hardest to replace. ABs are going need Lord or another young lock or two to step up and hope Scott Barrett stays fit (I imagine he will be captain).

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ can we afford to make a guy who gives away so many dumb penalties captain?

 

[Tomthumb]

^ can we afford to make a guy who gives away so many dumb penalties captain?

Worked alright for the Crusaders

 

[Braveheart81]

‘come off enough’?!

There is no such thing. The Law is to release. Ardie either released or he didn’t and Barnes knows he fucked up when he sees the replay.

I don’t blame the loss on Barnes but it would have been nice to have been gifted 3 points as well. Around the 79min mark would have been great LOL

Sure, but that the nuance is how you describe what is a binary decision. Barnes saying you didn't release and Ardie saying yes I did, look there doesn't actually get you any closer to a resolution.

From the camera angle we see (and in slow motion) we can see a release. From Barnes' angle, who knows? I think the point made is pretty clear that if he wants to be certain he's not going to get penalised he has to "come off" the tackled player more. I don't think that is at all unreasonable. It's communicated very clearly from Barnes to Savea.

It's like saying whether there was a double movement in a player scoring a try. We all know that the law is whether or not a player released the ball immediately but the description of what they did after they were tackled is how you arrive at the decision of whether or not they released.

Barnes didn't see the replay. He clearly says so on the broadcast.

 

[Oldschool]

^ can we afford to make a guy who gives away so many dumb penalties captain?

How did Sam Cane do???

 

[Blue]

Ardie as I understand is only missing Super so will be back for the 2024 test season

I would imagine Razor will talk Mo'unga into coming back - I doubt Mo'unga wants to end his career like that and I'm sure will want to play AB rugby under Razor.

Aaron Smith is going, as is Frizell (who may come back) as well as Coles and Laulala.

I would suggest the locks are gonna be the hardest to replace. ABs are going need Lord or another young lock or two to step up and hope Scott Barrett stays fit (I imagine he will be captain).

Found this on Rugbypass. Whoah!

Robertson won’t be able to call on Dane Coles, who is retiring, or superstars Brodie Retallick, Aaron Smith, and Sam Whitelock, who made France 2023 their All Blacks swansong.

Another group of senior players are unlikely to be seen again, at least in the short term, as they fall foul of eligibility rules.

Beauden Barrett (Toyota in Japan), Richie Mo’unga, Shannon Frizell (both Toshiba Brave Lupus in Japan), Leicester Fainga’anuku (Toulon in France) and Nepo Laulala (Toulouse in France) are moving abroad.

How the hell can you let Frizell go????

 

[Blue]

So:

Same Front Row
Barret, Fifita?
Cane?
<Need a 6, Blackadder?>
<Need an 8>
Roigard
Dmac
Telea
Jordie
Rieko
<Lots of Wing Options>
Jordan

All to play for in Super rugby next year.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ A

Of course it does to you. Ardie says something about the replay on the screen. Barnes said sorry (as much for not responding to Ardie because, you know, he was moving on to his next decision), says he didn't see the replay and then re-affirmed why he made the decision:

"I thought you stayed on him, I didn’t see it come off enough"

Which is why he penalised him.

There's no grassy knoll in this. Stop the whinging

Whinging?

"I'm not overly bothered by the Savea penalty either: even if Barnes knew he'd got it wrong once the replay was shown he had to stick with his decision, the Laws don't allow him to do otherwise."

 

[KiwiM]

Found this on Rugbypass. Whoah!

Robertson won’t be able to call on Dane Coles, who is retiring, or superstars Brodie Retallick, Aaron Smith, and Sam Whitelock, who made France 2023 their All Blacks swansong.

Another group of senior players are unlikely to be seen again, at least in the short term, as they fall foul of eligibility rules.

Beauden Barrett (Toyota in Japan), Richie Mo’unga, Shannon Frizell (both Toshiba Brave Lupus in Japan), Leicester Fainga’anuku (Toulon in France) and Nepo Laulala (Toulouse in France) are moving abroad.

How the hell can you let Frizell go????

Frizell had already signed overseas and at the time he hadn't nailed down the 6 jersey. Jase Ryan blamed poor communication and is keen to get him back.

Whilst Frizell played well in a couple of big games I think people are going a bit over board on his replaceability - I've seen enough from young Finau to suggest he will fill Frizell's boots just fine.