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RWC 2011 - Bitch, moan and discuss - Referees and Law Discussions

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C

chief

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He robbed the Wallabies at Twickenham last year too...some unforgiveably bad stuff. He gets away with it because he lets the physically dominant team do whatever they want.

Naza's right. Joubert gets the basic things wrong. A look at his last year performances will show catastrophic blunders including missing the ball come out of the other end of a scrum in a Bulls, Reds game. He's guilty of some very dodgy scrum performances, plus that shocker of a Wallabies game. I've never seen the fuss about Joubert.

Barnes and Mark Lawrence are usually the best. And I can't understand why Mark Lawrence wasn't picked. I just don't get it.
 

Top Bloke

Ward Prentice (10)
What are you trying to say? That Clancy knew the protocols a few months ago and just forgot? I think that's a stretch. ....

No not at all. You suggest that Clancy shouldn't be there because of the TMO stuff up. I'm pointing out that the ref selections were done well before that.

" POB insisted Kaplan was going and someone else complained that SA couldn't have three refs, it was over the quota. So Lawrence got dropped. " ....

The fact that this Cup only 10 ten refs have been selected (the previous Cup had 12) would also have had a bearing.
The selection was done based on 6 Nations performances also as the Tri-Nations was too late to be part of the process.
So Not 100% sure but maybe Mark Lawrence did not ref any ??

POB isnt even on the Ref seletion panel. - so enough of the POB conspiracy theories

The IRB's selection committee for referees: David Pickering (Wales, chairman), Tappe Henning (South Africa), Kevin Bowring (England), Bob Francis (New Zealand), Stephen Hilditch (Ireland) and Michel Lamoulie (France)


The
 
A

antipodean

Guest
1. Kaplan is so widely criticised in Australia because his refereeing is, by statistical analysis of his record, biased against Australian teams. Australia in internationals and the Waratahs in Super rugby, win less than 20% of their games when he referees. Both teams have win/loss records over 50% with all other referees. Contrary to the myth, statistics don't lie. The raw data is unchallengeable. He also tends to make big errors (second ball for quick lineout throws) but often he will get small detail decisions right that most other refs don't. I'd have him at the cup, but ineligible to referee Australian games, and he certainly should be limited to pool matches.
Perhaps you'd like to nominate a referee with whom you statistically have a guaranteed winning outcome? If you're going to peddle this, you'll have to explain how the appointment of Kaplan is more than correlation, but causation.

2.Your second sentence regarding Dickenson is just assertions. No argument or reason is given. So let me provide you with a reason that at least can be discussed. Dickenson is very strict at ruck time. The way all NZ teams (International and Super) play at the ruck is to cause general mayhem, sometimes legally, sometimes not.
Assertion. Mindless, partisan nonsense. Australians commit exactly the same transgressions as New Zealanders do at the breakdown - they're penalised for the same reason. The real point of difference for years was twofold:
When they sniff a chance of a turnover they swamp the breakdown more than most teams, and
Backs contested rucks like forwards.

Dickinson, like most refs is pedantic. I've less problem with referees applying strict interpretations of the laws as long as they do so consistently and correctly. At best, fails the second criteria and at his worst the first as well. He is myopic and consistently reward dominating teams, regardless of how the dominance is arrived.

The most glaring omission from the WC squad is Mark Lawrence. With Barnes he is in the top two tournament referees with Joubert having slipped from first to third lately.
What was that about assertions?

I've never seen the fuss about Joubert.
I don't mind him at all. While he appears to guess at scrum time (and there aren't too many refs who don't give this impression) he rewards teams that assert themselves unless they're blatantly going off their feet. Given it's a game of physical confrontation, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Barnes and Mark Lawrence are usually the best. And I can't understand why Mark Lawrence wasn't picked. I just don't get it.
I don't agree with Barnes. He is all too often decisive and incorrect, like a junior officer well out of his depth. His worst habit is carding defending players for the heinous crime of contesting for the ball in general play. He misses basic elements of the game. If you're an attacking player chasing a kick, the best thing you can do is clatter into a defending player and dive onto the ground. London to a brick Barnes will penalise the defender.

As a referee, his displays have all the marks of a manic depressive. On his day he is a very good referee. The flip side to this is how execrable he can make a game. He is vastly improved from the inept display of the Millenium Stadium in 2007, but anything is an improvement on that.

My list of the RWC refs:
* Wayne Barnes (England) - erratic pedant
* Nigel Owens (Wales) - whistle happy pedant
* Romain Poite (France) - hopeless from the little I've seen
* Dave Pearson (England) - Haven't seen enough to judge
* Alain Rolland (Ireland) - not a referee's arsehole
* Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand) - is a referee's arsehole
* Craig Joubert (South Africa) - usually competent
* Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa) - usually hopeless
* Steve Walsh (Australia) - occasionally hopeless
* George Clancy (Ireland) - just astonishing.
 

Eyes and Ears

Bob Davidson (42)
My list of the RWC refs:
* Wayne Barnes (England) - erratic pedant
* Nigel Owens (Wales) - whistle happy pedant
* Romain Poite (France) - hopeless from the little I've seen
* Dave Pearson (England) - Haven't seen enough to judge
* Alain Rolland (Ireland) - not a referee's arsehole
* Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand) - is a referee's arsehole
* Craig Joubert (South Africa) - usually competent
* Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa) - usually hopeless
* Steve Walsh (Australia) - occasionally hopeless
* George Clancy (Ireland) - just astonishing.

If the best referees in the world are all so bad, it must be a very hard job to get right.
I'm not sure how 2007 form is relevant - I wouldn't pick Kurtley or Quade on 2007 form but it would be crazy not to take them to this WC - the performance of Barnes in major games has been excellent in the last year or 2.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Yeah agree with E&E, you are way too harsh Antipodean and that anlysis says more about your expectation of top level refs than it does about the performance of the refs themselves.

I am a fan of Wayne Barnes and Craig Joubert, they are easily the two best refs around at the moment. Owens and Clancy are OK, Rolland is a little too pedantic for my liking, and Kaplan is too prone to major errors.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
Yeah agree with E&E, you are way too harsh Antipodean and that anlysis says more about your expectation of top level refs than it does about the performance of the refs themselves.

I am a fan of Wayne Barnes and Craig Joubert, they are easily the two best refs around at the moment. Owens and Clancy are OK, Rolland is a little too pedantic for my liking, and Kaplan is too prone to major errors.

Agree with Barbar except for this. Clancy seems to get overwhelmed with the pace (although not the same way as Owens did in SA last year...) and Owens seems to make poor decisions IMO.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Agree with Barbar except for this. Clancy seems to get overwhelmed with the pace (although not the same way as Owens did in SA last year...) and Owens seems to make poor decisions IMO.

I didn't think Clancy was too bad in the SA/NZ game. I was pretty pissed at the time though so may be wrong. I haven't seen much of Owens but the few times I have seen him in action he hasn't offended me too much. But again I may have missed dozens of horrendous performances.
 

whatty

Bob Loudon (25)
My list of the RWC refs:
* Wayne Barnes (England) - erratic pedant
* Nigel Owens (Wales) - whistle happy pedant
* Romain Poite (France) - hopeless from the little I've seen
* Dave Pearson (England) - Haven't seen enough to judge
* Alain Rolland (Ireland) - not a referee's arsehole
* Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand) - is a referee's arsehole
* Craig Joubert (South Africa) - usually competent
* Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa) - usually hopeless
* Steve Walsh (Australia) - occasionally hopeless
* George Clancy (Ireland) - just astonishing.

Dang you must be a barrel of fun to watch Rugby with!
 

elementfreak

Trevor Allan (34)
Some of those ref appointments are bunk. Stuey and Mark Lawrence got a raw deal and Stuey has been on the outer with POB for yonks.

Garces is the best ref in France and is just an AR, though Poite is OK and is good with the scrums since he refs on the vibe of it and doesn't stuff around with a lot of resets.

Clancy showed his inexperience with the forward pass kerfuffle. Kaplan misses more than any of them but can control a game. Pearson smooths errors over with jollity but the jollier he is the more you know he is stuffing up.

Owens is in POB's image: players are shit scared of him when he's in a bad mood. B. Lawrence can't make a decision; Walsh talks too much and since he is thought to like conversation, captains are encouraged to talk to him too much. He seems to be vulnerable to the last man he spoke to though that is probably a false impression. Whatever - he should encourage silence.

Rolland is very good but can have shockers.

The best refs IMO are the two youngest: Wayne Barnes and Craig Joubert, and probably in that order now. The appointment of Barnes for the Brisbane Bledisloe was a signal IMO. If England doesn't make the final he could get the gig.

Poite is very, very good nowadays. He is up there with Barnes and Joubert.

Clancy is very much a bolter, he is still pretty raw and look what happened with Barnes 4 years ago, although who knows this could make Cancy a better referee.

Walsh doesn't really talk as much as Barnes, he just does a lot of his management at downtime which I don't see as a bad thing.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Some good refs missed out, it shows how strong the panel is. I would have liked Mark Lawrence to make it though, he is a top ref.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
I rather like the fact that Poite's English is not brilliant as salesmen captains, like you-know-who, know that he is a hard sell.

He is a bit like a boxing ref whose curt comments are prescribed in the rules of the sport. His short sentences may not have received the plaudits of my old English master, Pansy Parker, but he is clear enough.

As in other matters of life, in refereeing rugby matches sometimes less is more.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
* Wayne Barnes (England) - erratic pedant

Don't forget his uncanny ability to get in the fucking way. Will Genia used him as shepherd brilliantly against the ABs. I lost count of how often players were trying to run around the useless muppet.
 

yourmatesam

Desmond Connor (43)
As in other matters of life, in refereeing rugby matches sometimes less is more.

I would say that this is definitely the case in rugby matches. If a referee constantly talks and "coaches" players on the field, the times when he actually wants something to happen (or gets tired and doesn't talk as well late in the game) the players are so accustomed to being told what to do, they don't understand why they have been penalised.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Perhaps you'd like to nominate a referee with whom you statistically have a guaranteed winning outcome? If you're going to peddle this, you'll have to explain how the appointment of Kaplan is more than correlation, but causation.


Assertion. Mindless, partisan nonsense. Australians commit exactly the same transgressions as New Zealanders do at the breakdown - they're penalised for the same reason. The real point of difference for years was twofold:
When they sniff a chance of a turnover they swamp the breakdown more than most teams, and
Backs contested rucks like forwards.

Dickinson, like most refs is pedantic. I've less problem with referees applying strict interpretations of the laws as long as they do so consistently and correctly. At best, fails the second criteria and at his worst the first as well. He is myopic and consistently reward dominating teams, regardless of how the dominance is arrived.


What was that about assertions?


I don't mind him at all. While he appears to guess at scrum time (and there aren't too many refs who don't give this impression) he rewards teams that assert themselves unless they're blatantly going off their feet. Given it's a game of physical confrontation, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.


I don't agree with Barnes. He is all too often decisive and incorrect, like a junior officer well out of his depth. His worst habit is carding defending players for the heinous crime of contesting for the ball in general play. He misses basic elements of the game. If you're an attacking player chasing a kick, the best thing you can do is clatter into a defending player and dive onto the ground. London to a brick Barnes will penalise the defender.

As a referee, his displays have all the marks of a manic depressive. On his day he is a very good referee. The flip side to this is how execrable he can make a game. He is vastly improved from the inept display of the Millenium Stadium in 2007, but anything is an improvement on that.

My list of the RWC refs:
* Wayne Barnes (England) - erratic pedant
* Nigel Owens (Wales) - whistle happy pedant
* Romain Poite (France) - hopeless from the little I've seen
* Dave Pearson (England) - Haven't seen enough to judge
* Alain Rolland (Ireland) - not a referee's arsehole
* Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand) - is a referee's arsehole
* Craig Joubert (South Africa) - usually competent
* Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa) - usually hopeless
* Steve Walsh (Australia) - occasionally hopeless
* George Clancy (Ireland) - just astonishing.

To address the issues raised:
  1. Just because the statistics show that one referee is biased against a particular team does not mean there has to be another referee biased in the opposite direction. I know of no other international referee who has this sort of issue. There may be one, but not that I'm aware.
  2. If the reason NZ won virtually all its games at the breakdown was just the two reasons you cited then other coaches would have picked this up and used it. Their exceptional performance at the breakdown (national, Super and ITM) is much more complex and involves the whole culture of NZ rugby and the way players learn to play the ruck in all their matches. The dominance is most pronounced when referees are lenient and less pronounced when referees are strict. I suspect your use of the word pedantic in relation to Dickenson is probably close to my use of the word strict.
  3. Yes, my comment that Barnes, Mark Lawrence and Joubert are the best three refs is an assertion. I make it because watching the Super tournament and the internationals carefully I came to that conclusion. Last year I thought Joubert was the best ref on the planet but I think this year he has had some pretty ordinary games by his standards. Even his ordinary games however are way better than Bryce Lawrences and some of the other refs who got a gig.
  4. Of the WC listed referees you have one who is usually competent and the rest of them are utterly hopeless for a variety of reasons. People say I am a hard marker when it comes to referees but this is ridiculous. They cannot all be totally hopeless except for Joubert. Joubert tends to allow dominant teams more lattitude under the laws, I suspect this is why you find him so good by comparison with all the others.
 
B

BRIX

Guest
Yes hello, I would like to have both a bitch and a moan about the welcome teams are getting. Are the Kiwis performing the welcome to our country Haka with their threatening demeanor's and little clubs & spears? or is it the usual war-dance we'll kill you die Haka?

I noticed the Kiwis performed the Haka for Queen Lizzie at Buckingham Palace a while back too which was sort of weird. Am I mistaken in believing that there are different types of Haka's for certain occasions?

War games or pleasantries? All a bit bemusing really. Blow the whistle already ref! :fishing
 
J

Jay

Guest
Yes hello, I would like to have both a bitch and a moan about the welcome teams are getting. Are the Kiwis performing the welcome to our country Haka with their threatening demeanor's and little clubs & spears? or is it the usual war-dance we'll kill you die Haka?

I noticed the Kiwis performed the Haka for Queen Lizzie at Buckingham Palace a while back too which was sort of weird. Am I mistaken in believing that there are different types of Haka's for certain occasions?

War games or pleasantries? All a bit bemusing really. Blow the whistle already ref! :fishing

A haka is just a chant/song - there's as many of them as people can write.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Hawko - some thorough analysis there to back up your hard marks. Well done.

Obviously, the worst ref in that list is Bryce who is there because of who he knows. Lunatic conspiracy theorists like myself might add that he refs just the way the Abs like it, so maybe that is another reason.

From Aus, I would have prefered Dickenson to Walsh. Walsh sometimes completely loses control of the players. Not a good look. Dickenson is a strict ref, which doesn't suit the Kiwis at all. Plus, I suspect he doesn't like them very much.

Hawko, your analysis of Joubert is spot on - he rewards the dominant team. Which is sometimes frustrating when that team has achieved dominance through breaking the laws - esp breakdown (offside) and scrum (hands on deck).

Kaplan used to be a good ref (even if he had a suspicious record against the Tahs) but has got steadily worse to the point that makes more mistakes than correct decisions.

In short - I'm seriously hoping that when Andre Watson takes over as ref boss, we see improvments in quality and process.
 
A

antipodean

Guest
If the best referees in the world are all so bad, it must be a very hard job to get right.
Having played, coached and ref'd, it is a very hard job to get right, but that doesn't make professionals exempt from criticism - the same reason people analyse and dissect player performance.

I'm not sure how 2007 form is relevant
Neither am I. Perhaps you can elucidate your reasons for including it?

Yeah agree with E&E, you are way too harsh Antipodean and that anlysis says more about your expectation of top level refs than it does about the performance of the refs themselves.
My expectation of their performance? All I really want is for them to be consistent, then we could start hoping for accuracy.

Dang you must be a barrel of fun to watch Rugby with!
Don't confuse watching a game with analysis. I applaud things the opposition does well, perhaps that's a result of attending matches with friends who support teams other than mine. I recommend it.

To address the issues raised:
Just because the statistics show that one referee is biased against a particular team does not mean there has to be another referee biased in the opposite direction. I know of no other international referee who has this sort of issue. There may be one, but not that I'm aware.
I'm not the one suggesting that referees with whom my team has a losing record should be prevented from being on the panel in future.

If the reason NZ won virtually all its games at the breakdown was just the two reasons you cited then other coaches would have picked this up and used it.
They have and do. The competitiveness of other nations at the breakdown, especially amongst their backs is vastly improved from what it was several years back.

The dominance is most pronounced when referees are lenient and less pronounced when referees are strict. I suspect your use of the word pedantic in relation to Dickenson is probably close to my use of the word strict.
No, my usage of pedantic in relation to Stu is his annoying habit of ignoring the materiality of the offence. He often rules on inconsequential shit, which wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't ignoring more heinous crimes or just being completely and utterly wrong.

Yes, my comment that Barnes, Mark Lawrence and Joubert are the best three refs is an assertion. I make it because watching the Super tournament and the internationals carefully I came to that conclusion. Last year I thought Joubert was the best ref on the planet but I think this year he has had some pretty ordinary games by his standards. Even his ordinary games however are way better than Bryce Lawrences and some of the other refs who got a gig.
So your assertions are fine, but not mine. Noted. FWIW I agree that Joubert was the best referee last year and that Bryce is crap. I also believe that despite his awful positioning at ruck time and tendancy to inconsistency, Barnes is growing into one of the best referees in the world - a position I've stated numerous times. I also believe Mark Lawrence and the RWC have been shafted.

Of the WC listed referees you have one who is usually competent and the rest of them are utterly hopeless for a variety of reasons.
That's not what I said. Please do me the courtesy of not misrepresenting what I said.

Joubert tends to allow dominant teams more lattitude under the laws, I suspect this is why you find him so good by comparison with all the others.
Not that he gives latitude, rather that he rewards dominance. Dominance shouldn't be gained as a result of law transgressions, but neither should inconsequential violations as a result of dominance be picked on. It's a fine line, but one he negotiates better than most.

Obviously, the worst ref in that list is Bryce who is there because of who he knows. Lunatic conspiracy theorists like myself might add that he refs just the way the Abs like it, so maybe that is another reason.
Bryce has never refereed an All Blacks fixture.
 

matty_k

Peter Johnson (47)
I don't understand why the refs aren't interviewed after the game. Let them be honest and all they have to say on questionable calls is "That's not how I saw it and in review I can see that I missed it."
 
J

Jay

Guest
I don't understand why the refs aren't interviewed after the game. Let them be honest and all they have to say on questionable calls is "That's not how I saw it and in review I can see that I missed it."

I'd imagine it's cause they'd be on a hiding to nothing.

Unless they'd f*cked up, no one would be interested in hearing from them.
 
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