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Ruggamatrix with Eddie Jones

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daz

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But only Slipper has emerged as near viable cover, the other two have been found very wanting. I know they are the best kids we have, but it may have been smarter to stick Daley et al in a Currie Cup team or a New Zealand provincial team and let them learn a bit first and let the "oldies" take the pain/blame whilst building proper depth.

We just don't have that kind of time fp. Every test that the oldies play in reduces coal-face development. I don't like it, but it is simply unavoidable.

IMO, Ma'afu is just not good enough regardless of how much time we spend on him. Slipper really does look the goods at this early stage, but I also think that Daley is going to be in the Wallaby set-up for a long, long time to come. The lad has skills; not only will he get better and better in the scrum, but his ability at the breakdown to consistently get the ball over the advantage line is priceless. Not a bad runner, either....
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
The few times the Bulls attacked the ruck the Reds looked very shaky. You can count on the Boks and AB's counter rucking and attacking the scrum a lot more than the Bulls did against the Reds.

And they have the ability to leverage the dominance more effectively than waiting for push overs.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
We just don't have that kind of time fp. Every test that the oldies play in reduces coal-face development. I don't like it, but it is simply unavoidable.

IMO, Ma'afu is just not good enough regardless of how much time we spend on him. Slipper really does look the goods at this early stage, but I also think that Daley is going to be in the Wallaby set-up for a long, long time to come. The lad has skills; not only will he get better and better in the scrum, but his ability at the breakdown to consistently get the ball over the advantage line is priceless. Not a bad runner, either....

We can disagree there, I though Kepu could have been recalled to replace Daley as he is back in club and did well against a good uni scrum. Daley needs 4 or 5 more years
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
+1.
Absolutely agree. As much as it hurt me to see us roll-over against the Poms, I do see that it is far better to blood some front row cover in a series of June internationals that no-one will really remember, to ensure we have adequate depth come 2011.

Daz, I think the long-suffering fans will surely remember them. At Suncorp vs Ireland, fully 20% or more of the fans around me got up and left 15-20 mins before the end of the game and almost all were volunteering statements like 'crap game, thought Walls would be better than Reds', 'what a joke of a game', 'Walls getting worse and worse', etc.

Often we more passionate rugby lovers forget this dimension - the 'everyday' fan's view of what they are getting. We look to complex schemes and selection ploys that will yield RWC benefits, or such like. But, as you know, Oz rugby Test attendances are declining markedly in recent years. The SOO III at ANZ last night got a much bigger crowd than that that attended the recent England v Wallabies Test.

I know and respect your hunger for Deans and us to win the RWC '11. But it's very debatable if this goal sitting by itself - even if achieved - has enough substance to rebuild the everyday fan base in 2012-14 say. Take England's march to the Final in '07. They got to that peak (btw, without having to beat all the best teams), they lost, England then continued to drift and decline from that point onwards. The RWC is great for rugby patriotic fervour and the like, but it's a dangerous illusion to make it some kind of continuing justification for mediocrity and poor Wallabies standards along the way.

The other 'silent' danger is that, for coaches, the RWC can become the overwhelming central pathway for the next major role thereafter. It can thus be the case that the deeper motivation of coaches may not necessarily align with the underlying needs of the Australian game long-term.
 

HG

Jimmy Flynn (14)
Sort of agree. However the media focus on the world cup is massive. A win by Australia at the world cup will do more to promote rugby at all levels that a poor display mid year against England or Ireland. The years 2012 and 2013 provided we can continue the winning form will paved with gold in gate takings as I don't expect mass retirements coming from the current crop.
We have taken a lot of pain over the last 8 or so years and we need a big goal to set our sights on.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Sort of agree. However the media focus on the world cup is massive. A win by Australia at the world cup will do more to promote rugby at all levels that a poor display mid year against England or Ireland. The years 2012 and 2013 provided we can continue the winning form will paved with gold in gate takings as I don't expect mass retirements coming from the current crop.
We have taken a lot of pain over the last 8 or so years and we need a big goal to set our sights on.

All fair points HG....but note your post's dependence on 'continue the winning form', that's the crucial bit. Good winning form, season in, season out.

I guess I am concerned about the implied downside in this scenario - if we make the type of mistakes and game stuff-ups that really hit the everyday fans' support this year say via a very bad Tris result and mixed results in Europe this spring, arguing this is all a great RWC plan in the making, then do poorly or just OK at RWC time, there could be a negative 'tipping point' for Oz rugby that may be hard to recover from...
 

HG

Jimmy Flynn (14)
I see a lot of positives that have come out of the games so far this year. Look at the cattle coming back latter this year from injury.
Look at the big leap in confidence and quality of play from the younger players. Who would ever have thought that Cooper would be named SUPPER 14 PLAYER OF THE YEAR. There is some very good young talent coming through and we are a year away before the big show. We have a TN and a EOYT to come plus a super 15 season. These lot will have plenty of experience by the WC comes around plus another year of improvements.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Naza is officially back. Where have you been? I started to think you lost your passion for a while there?!

Naza, what do you think of Dean Mumm's performances for the Wallabies?

The passion was numbed by watching too many insipid Wallabies performances. Followed by headscratching at how blokes who may only get 1 shot at test rugby don't fire up.

I'll fess up. I was on the Dean Mumm bandwagon. I claimed over ago he was the answer to our blindside problem. And he puzzles me. He just hasn't made the step up to test rugby.

At club and S14 level, he's terrific. Is everywhere, raw boned, and just consistently gets through a pile of work. The kind of no frills bloke you can count on every game to roll up his sleeves. I wasn't surprised that NSW are grooming him for the captaincy and that he led the Wallabies mid-week team. I was convinced he wouldn't let me down, he'd show these Wallabies what counter rucks, offensive defence and slowing down opposition pill is all about. So to see him staring at the breakdown gormlessly has been painful to watch. And then come out in the press and say 'we know we need to do better', then serve up the same turd sandwich...it just kills me. He's in his 3rd year of test rugby, with about 20 caps behind him. Nobody wants to see another Mark Chisholm.

His aerial ball winning has improved signficantly, he's surprisingly effective for an undersized lock. Ultimately I can't point to anything he's doing particularly well at test level.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Well said naza, I agree with every word. The size thing doesn't seem to bother him in the air, just gets a bet confrontation-shy at times against the big boys.

I still think he is a lock not a 6, but he's starting to look like he's our lock/6 bench man.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
His aerial ball winning has improved signficantly, he's surprisingly effective for an undersized lock. Ultimately I can't point to anything he's doing particularly well at test level.

He is David Giffin without the effectiveness at the ruck. Although I think Giffin was slightly overrated.

I see him as a possible 6 still. But at the moment naza is right - he is just another Mark Chisholm.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Well said naza, I agree with every word. The size thing doesn't seem to bother him in the air, just gets a bet confrontation-shy at times against the big boys.

I still think he is a lock not a 6, but he's starting to look like he's our lock/6 bench man.

He's really put his hand up with the kick re-starts, its not glamorous but its vital pill.

Agree on the 6/lock thing, he's well suited there. I think Lee calls those guys halflings.

I'd say part of the frustration with Mumm is he's been brought along brilliantly by Wallaby coaches & selectors. 2008 they blood him, get him good minutes off the bench and a start. 2009 his minutes work up a bit with 5 starts and he captains the mid-week team on the EOYT. 2010 he starts, Nathan Sharpe has the responsibility of the lineout calls. He's been treated well. They've learned from throwing McMenimen and Heenan into the deep end and having them break. Its time to see a return on that investment.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
The passion was numbed by watching too many insipid Wallabies performances. Followed by headscratching at how blokes who may only get 1 shot at test rugby don't fire up.
Seldom have truer words been writ.
Mumm is in that category, and I have always been a fan at club and S14 level. Chisolm in particular shits me to tears - big, co-ordinated, fast but seemingly no intestinal fortitude. I watched the Wallabies v ABs from Dunedin in 2001 last night - both teams gave a great display of hitting the breakdowns in attack and defense, especially the ABs who won several huge turnovers. Just a lot of mongrel to be seen.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
He's really put his hand up with the kick re-starts, its not glamorous but its vital pill.

Agree on the 6/lock thing, he's well suited there. I think Lee calls those guys halflings.

I'd say part of the frustration with Mumm is he's been brought along brilliantly by Wallaby coaches & selectors. 2008 they blood him, get him good minutes off the bench and a start. 2009 his minutes work up a bit with 5 starts and he captains the mid-week team on the EOYT. 2010 he starts, Nathan Sharpe has the responsibility of the lineout calls. He's been treated well. They've learned from throwing McMenimen and Heenan into the deep end and having them break. Its time to see a return on that investment.

As you said naza, wasn't it pretty poor when he came out in Rugbyheaven a week or so ago and said something like '...we may have been taking selection for granted...will now try harder...'.

To your good point re many of the new boys in the recent Wallabies that seem to feel it's some sort of social experiment for them. Where's the 'hard mind' in that team, why aren't these guys just bursting with aggression and drive to honour the jersey and cement a place immediately? IMO, something is just fundamentally wrong with the attitude in this current Wallaby incarnation. Why it is so, we can speculate, but it's not going to produce results against anything other than the mid-ranked teams, and below.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Can anyone really say Ma'afu looks better for the experience?

Much as it grieves me to say this about a fellow Pirate but, to my eyes, the young THPs with the most potential would be Weeks and Palmer. They're definitely better scrummagers than Salesi.
 

HG

Jimmy Flynn (14)
I agree! Not sure what Weeks has done not to get a trial over the June Tests.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I agree! Not sure what Weeks has done not to get a trial over the June Tests.

Agreed, Weekes seemed to be ignored and just got cameo bits some of which required him to play out of position
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Agreed, Weekes seemed to be ignored and just got cameo bits some of which required him to play out of position

Weekes had problems in the "A" games, but from all reports when he was put in at LHP. He wasn't troubled to any great degree in the S14 against any opponent including Fatcat.

Interesting to note Bob Dwyer's comments regarding the AB scrum against the Bok, Woodcock still not binding and Franks dropping his bind as well as Mcaw sliding up onto Du Plesis. Went back and had a look and sure enough he was spot on. Refs must look more closely at this and get some consistancy.
 
T

tranquility

Guest
I am a Robbie Deans supporter, but it makes the mind boggle how he could continually select Salesi over Weekes and Palmer. Palmer was so dominant at scrum time in the games that I saw, that the opposition scrum wheeled so heavily that the Waratahs pack were unsure how to capatalise on it. He may be a pot plant around the field, but this is the exact type of player that would be of huge benefit to be chucked into a Wallaby program. Damn shame really.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I am a Robbie Deans supporter, but it makes the mind boggle how he could continually select Salesi over Weekes and Palmer. Palmer was so dominant at scrum time in the games that I saw, that the opposition scrum wheeled so heavily that the Waratahs pack were unsure how to capatalise on it. He may be a pot plant around the field, but this is the exact type of player that would be of huge benefit to be chucked into a Wallaby program. Damn shame really.

I have heard that Palmer is carrying a foot injury. Anybody from Souths able to confirm or deny?
 
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