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Robbie Deans

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J

Jumpers

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While I not into debate whether Deans should or should not coach Wallabies, I will always remember the gist of what Tana Umaga said when asked how he felt about John Mitchell and Deans losing their AB jobs after 2003, it was along the lines of ,I don't feel sorry for them, they never cared about players. I will see if I can find the comment somewhere if I get the energy. Also the thing I did wonder, when JON resigned Deans until 2013 it was supposed to stop NZRU headhunting Deans if ABs had bad WC, I always understood that Deans was more or less told when he missed ABs head coaching job after 2007, he was told he was not even 2nd in line, and basically a long way from getting it.

Yes pretty much what I suspected and heard at the time of AB coaching selection. Now of course the ABs will be looking for a new coach and right now its said Steve Tew is next in line to take over from GH, although GH has not made his position clear if he wants to continue!!
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I disagree. I dont think the Wallabies were "ambushed" like the AB's.

The Wallabies simply havent played that well this RWC. They were beaten by a much lower ranked Irish team who had targeted the Wallabies with a limited game plane built around gaining an ascendancy at scrum time and flooding the breakdown. Deans didn't bring a back-up 7. Tactically, he has been off the pace and I, for one, dont believe that he has 'learned' enough to warrant being given the job for another 4 years. I want Link to lead us to the next RWC, even if Deans keeps his roll through the Lions series.

Riptide, a chill went down my spine today with Deans telling media he'd actually like to lead the Wallabies into RWC 2015.

Does this man possess any humility and a sense of direct responsibility after no less than 4 full years in this job? He was quoted as yesterday noting that 'the Wallabies lack the mental resiliences and hunger etc of the ABs', almost as though these subtle 'the issue's with the players and not me' comments could ever ring true. A huge part of an elite coach's job is to be build a mentally tough and resilient 'team mind' with his charges, not fucking sit there after 4 years making philosophical comments as to its regrettable absence on the big stage.

It's a sure indication of his lack of real character and depth as a leader that _not once_ in these 4 years has Deans _ever_ taken direct responsibility for _any_ loss or deficiency within the 2008-11 Wallabies. It's always something to do with the player's unfortunate state of 'learning' or 'maturing' or 'developing' or 'not yet showing they really want it', or such like. It's all some grand learning curve that is somehow utterly detached from his highly paid role as teacher. Yet the Wallabies 'came of age' after the WC win vs SA, but then, in complete contrast, after the loss to the ABs the team 'lacked the required mental resilience'.

This bloke is completely out his depth as a leader that must train and develop in depth a national rugby team like the Wallabies. He could refine and motivate an already highly polished S14 machine in a deep local rugby system like the Crusaders/Canterbury, but he cannot do more, he cannot do what our country's team requires and, worse, he accepts no real accountability for doing it.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I think that Jim Williams is a glaring problem amongst our coaching staff. Our lineouts were horrendous against the Springboks and our restarts have been bad for years.

It's hard to know who is to be blamed for all our tactical problems. The plan might have been to box kick from certain positions, but the players are also told to play what's in front of them. I lay plenty of blame of Genia for persisting with box kicks when he wasn't even kicking them well and we were just turning over the ball.

Our biggest problem was that players in key positions didn't play well during the RWC.

the box kicks weren't that bad, the ABs runner blocking was just of a very very high standard. They made sure Digby just didn't get there without a lot of side stepping
 
J

Jumpers

Guest
Thank you
This is what I have been saying for FOUR LONG YEARS now.

Maybe Deans is a great coach, for a NZ ABs team, not ours.



Sorry I hope Deans will never coach the ABs as his record is shocking and unacceptable to ABs fans! SThere are plenty of coaches in NZ who would only dream about coaching the ABs. Todd Blackadder, Jamie Joseph, Ian Foster, Dave Rennie and Steve Tew who is expected to take over from GH should the latter retire!
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
To be clear, Nucifora is responsible for the breakdown, where I feel he has been bailed out by the excellence of Pocock. I actually had been impressed by the improved effort at the breakdown following the Brisbane Bledisloe, but the Irish and Italian game raised strong questions. Without Pocock, the Wallabies struggled.

Williams is responsible for lineouts and re-starts. With Moore throwing & Sharpe calling, the lineouts have been fine for some time. I have not been that impressed with Vickerman's lineout work in this tournament; he got cleaned out by Matfield and came 2nd best against Ireland's O'Connell. How much responsibility JimWilliams bears, I am unsure, but re-starts have been average. This isn't helped by Cooper's inconsistency but defensive restarts havent always gone smoothly.

Noriega has had the brief for scrums and several years on after identifying this area as a major weakness, we are still conceding ground and critical penalties at vital moments. Robinson's loss was significant, but we desperately need more consistency and not just the occasional big game.

Steve Hansen has been pilloried in years past in NZ for the AB lineout but those issues appear to have been rectified.

And then there is Dean, solely responsible for the attack which has delivered one try in the three big games.
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
Sorry I hope Deans will never coach the ABs as his record is shocking and unacceptable to ABs fans! SThere are plenty of coaches in NZ who would only dream about coaching the ABs. Todd Blackadder, Jamie Joseph, Ian Foster, Dave Rennie and Steve Tew who is expected to take over from GH should the latter retire!

I'm sure you meant Steve Hansen, and not Steve Tew. Hansen is expected to receive Henry's strong endorsement while Smith goes off with Dave Rennie to coach the Chiefs. None of the others really have the requisite experience. It will be interesting to see if Gatland really will be considered by the NZRFU or if he'd apply (doubt it) as until this tournament, he was widely regarded as a one trick pony.
 

biggsy

Chilla Wilson (44)
He might be a bit like cooper, great in super rugby but terrible in international Rugby....

Could the likes of Ewin Mckenzie coach the Reds and Wallabies in the same year.....is this allowed.... Seeing super rugby and international rugby don't interfere through out the year...
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
If you have sides that kick and chase well (to limit counter attack), dominate the set piece and slow the ball down at the breakdown - there are simply few, if no, attacking opportunities
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
He might be a bit like cooper, great in super rugby but terrible in international Rugby....

Could the likes of Ewin Mckenzie coach the Reds and Wallabies in the same year.....is this allowed.... Seeing super rugby and international rugby don't interfere through out the year...

It would place huge time demands on link. He wouldn't be able to do a lot of the day to day stuff at the reds.

I dont think you would have to worry about bias, because he's a victorian, who played for nsw and act and is now coaching qld. Well maybe the force blokes might feel a bit left out...
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
Riptide, a chill went down my spine today with Deans telling media he'd actually like to lead the Wallabies into RWC 2015.

Does this man possess any humility and a sense of direct responsibility after no less than 4 full years in this job? He was quoted as yesterday noting that 'the Wallabies lack the mental resiliences and hunger etc of the ABs', almost as though these subtle 'the issue's with the players and not me' comments could ever ring true. A huge part of an elite coach's job is to be build a mentally tough and resilient 'team mind' with his charges, not fucking sit there after 4 years making philosophical comments as to its regrettable absence on the big stage.

It's a sure indication of his lack of real character and depth as a leader that _not once_ in these 4 years has Deans _ever_ taken direct responsibility for _any_ loss or deficiency within the 2008-11 Wallabies. It's always something to do with the player's unfortunate state of 'learning' or 'maturing' or 'developing' or 'not yet showing they really want it', or such like. It's all some grand learning curve that is somehow utterly detached from his highly paid role as teacher. Yet the Wallabies 'came of age' after the WC win vs SA, but then, in complete contrast, after the loss to the ABs the team 'lacked the required mental resilience'.

This bloke is completely out his depth as a leader that must train and develop in depth a national rugby team like the Wallabies. He could refine and motivate an already highly polished S14 machine in a deep local rugby system like the Crusaders/Canterbury, but he cannot do more, he cannot do what our country's team requires and, worse, he accepts no real accountability for doing it.

I believe Deans is a good coach, but I think the Wallabies can do better. I find myself in agreement with you on "mental toughness" and Deans seems to have a disturbing habit of speaking of the Wallabies in the third person, as if he did not share responsibility for any failings. Inculcating the right team culture and the development of togetherness, mental toughness are all critical for a coach. There are a few coaches who seem both to push the right buttons with players to get them in the right frame of mind to play consistently near the best AND have the technical nous to devise ways to attack opposition weakness while masking one's own. Henry wasn't always this good; he has admitted his people skills improved after a Lions Tour to Australia where it is said he lost much of the locker-room. He claims that tour made him.

Deans has now failed with the ABs in 2003 and one can argue that the Wallabies performance (if not the actual results given a semi-final place) in this RWC has been disappointing. The Wallabies did not perform to their potential. Deans had to get Cooper in the right mind space so at the very least he wasn't a drag on the Wallaby performance and he didn't. True, Henry has had some all-time greats in Carter and McCaw to serve as his team's spine and that's contributed to him being so successful with the ABs, but is there a single member of this forum who thinks Henry is not a better head coach than Deans?

Personally, I think Link manages players better (and not just because he is comprehensible), he entrust back-up players to perform and they usually do. He also gets his no-nothing Reds to transform their game and ethos in no time to perform consistently and drives them to the top.

Perhaps Deans will improve; there is room for it. Maybe he will learn from this but I feel that he hasn't learned that much from the past four years. I have more confidence in Link getting the job done. The Wallabies may not win the next world cup, but with Link, I believe they will perform close to their potential.
 

Riptide

Dave Cowper (27)
If you have sides that kick and chase well (to limit counter attack), dominate the set piece and slow the ball down at the breakdown - there are simply few, if no, attacking opportunities

I'm sure I'm not alone by saying the Wallaby kick/chase has been shit for some time now.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
I'm sure I'm not alone by saying the Wallaby kick/chase has been shit for some time now.

I didn't think it was a coincidence that the Brisbane Bledisloe was our best kick-chase game of the year, with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) contesting every high kick or belting the recipient as soon as his little toe touched the ground.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Interesting that a couple of NZ posters have raised the ABs coaching position interviews again. When Deans was interviewed he had not prepared for the interview apart from himself turning up. He had done no preparation into who would be assistant coaches and support staff. This highlights the arrogance RH speaks about IMO. It shows that in his mind the NZRU would want him no matter what. Stupidly JON signed him on that basis. In hindsight it is the worst business decision that JON has ever made within Rugby or without.

Now consider that attitude of arrogance going in unprepared to an interview he knew was coming for months and extrapolate that to his preparations of the Wallabies for games. The same neglect is apparent to me. Can anybody say the Wallabies have gone into a match with a comprehensive set play list and over arching game plan. Sure there have been generalities like the kicking game and defensive set up for this RWC. But at what point were those tactics coached and trained and I might add the right players selected to execute said plan. Compare this with the Boks. in 2009 many derided the Boks kick chase game plan, but is was coached and executed to perfection. As negatively as it was portrayed it was very good rugby. Now contrast that to Deans "plans" when has the execution or the selection of the players ever matched the "plans" he has come up with? As with his interview for the ABs position there is no effective preparation and it shows. The NZRU undoubtedly made the right decision in not appointing Deans and I think it safe to say he will never get the job now. I doubt he would even get an assistant's role. I also doubt if any other Tier 1 nation would sign him and many Tier 2 nations would also think twice IMO.

I am left stunned that after four years of the worst results in Australian Professional Rugby History that some people have again moved the goal posts for Deans, saying this "young team" is two or four years early depending on the individual. I would love to be an executive in a company with shareholders like these people and put in performances like Deans. The company would go broke but I would get plenty of cash from it before I killed it. There can be no reasonable honest review of Deans that finds anything but, Deans tenure has been a failure on all levels.
1) Actual Results - No
2) Mode of Play - No or at best one in 5 games (regardless of results)
3) Development of players - has any player actually performed better under his tutelage? Beale - No, JOC (James O'Connor) - Maybe, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - No, Elsom - No, Front row - No, Ioane - Maybe, Cooper/Genia - No, Horwill - No.
So at best we can some very arguable maybes.
4) Selection - No.
5) Tactics - No.
6) Bench Usage - No.
7) Engagement of Fans - No
8) Team Discipline - Yes. There have been fewer and less serious player behaviour issues under his tenure. But I wonder how much of that is down to a couple of individuals no longer being in the set up.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
He might be a bit like cooper, great in super rugby but terrible in international Rugby....

Could the likes of Ewin Mckenzie coach the Reds and Wallabies in the same year.....is this allowed.... Seeing super rugby and international rugby don't interfere through out the year...

they do next year. Super rugby season stops for 3 weeks to play a series of internationals (us tests v Wales) before recommencing to finish the season.

Can't have a provincial coach also being the test coach. It will already be a strain for Phil Blake, assuming he will be defensive coach and Force assistant next year.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I am left stunned that after four years of the worst results in Australian Professional Rugby History

nice to see we are so so shit and still rank 2nd in the world .............................................
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
People keep forgetting that this ABs side is just about the most successful of all time.

We are a bit inconsistent, but we really aren't that bad.

This is true, but as I have said elsewhere there's no shame in losing to the ABs in the semi. There's a fair bit of it in scoring one try against Ireland, RSA and NZ and playing one good half against non-minnows. Our only truly world class effort was in defense against the Saffers.
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
Good article by Paul Cully today which probably belongs in here:

No games to glory: the credibility gap in Australian rugby Paul Cully
October 18, 2011 - 9:23AM

In the 29th minute of the Wallabies' comprehensive defeat by a relentless New Zealand on Sunday, Pat McCabe took the ball off an attacking lineout move and ran straight and hard at All Blacks five-eighth Aaron Cruden. The 22-year-old pivot brought him to the ground with a textbook low tackle.

It shone a light, yet again, on the decision to absolve Quade Cooper of his defensive duties. But even more importantly, it highlighted that, in five key positions through the spine of side – at No.10, fullback, tight-head prop, second row and No.8 – the Wallabies were being beaten not only by better prepared players, but younger ones. And that - aside from the tactical and selection issues - goes to the heart of why there are questions about the credibility of the current Australian set-up.

Until Sunday, Wallabies fans had been asked to sign up to an unwritten contract with Australian rugby. Accept 10 straight losses to your bitterest rivals, we have them covered in the long game. Put up with losses to England, Scotland and Munster, the new guys are getting closer. Live with the degradation of Australia's Test record for the bigger picture, because in all of those defeats lessons are being learnt by a developing side that will translate into World Cup success. But the pot at the end of that rainbow has turned out to contain something murkier than gold.

Unfortunately, a sense of breached trust had been introduced even before the tournament with the re-signing of Robbie Deans. It might have been done with the best of intentions – to keep a coveted coach in the fold - but it created the perception that the goalposts had been shifted. That this team might not actually be at its best until another two years, the 2013 Lions tour – so just stick with us.

There are no guarantees that this Wallabies side can eradicate its frailties simply by observing the passage of time. The average age of the Wallabies starting XV on Sunday was 26 years. The average age of the All Blacks was 27.6 years. It is not a chasm.

Yes, the hosts were helped by contributions from their older warriors (especially from the bench), but the spark equally came from the likes of Israel Dagg and Owen Franks. Like that pair, Sam Whitelock - unchallenged in the lineouts - is also 23. Kieran Read is younger than Digby Ioane. New Zealand have won the past four Junior World Championships. They do not give the impression of a nation standing idle and waiting to be overtaken.

Elsewhere in the tournament outstanding youngsters were repeatedly seen blossoming in other colours, the red of Wales in particular. Ireland unearthed Sean O'Brien, 24, a brute around whom they can build a future and England unleashed Manu Tuilagi, just 20. These players are not going to stand still over the next two years before the Lions tour in 2013. Those who frame odds as a profession might struggle to favour Australia at this stage, especially with the Wallabies props' reputation still sitting just above that of journalists. Another promise unfulfilled.

It does not help Deans that the Wallabies suffered more at Eden Park more than could have been predicted. Amnesia seemed to have swept over those predicting an Australian win – they were a shade fortunate to progress so far - but the manner in which they were beaten still surprised. Fatigue was clearly a factor but it does not go the whole way to explaining consistently poor body position among the forwards - way too upright – and a first-half game plan that was two years out of date.

The All Blacks back three have been remodelled since the Springboks caused Joe Rokocoko and Sitiveni Sivivatu all manner of misery in 2009 with their aerial inquisitions. Safety under the high ball is now a prerequisite for the wingers. The clue was in Cory Jane's selection – a converted fullback – yet Will Genia kicked to him on three occasions – in the 2nd, 16th and 32nd minute for the same result.

Even if the Wallabies had forced some midfield knock-ons from the All Blacks it was unclear what the benefit could be - the scrum was the one area where inferiority was almost guaranteed. The Wallabies have some wonderful runners – Ioane in particular – and the All Blacks will have been mightily relieved to see him consigned to a Bryan Habana role of kick chaser.

As for Cooper, it is hard not to feel some sympathy for him. His year has been complicated by the fact that he won a title for the Reds while being hidden in defence. What was good for Queensland was not good for the national cause. Had he defended in the No.10 channel all year more complete assessments about his readiness for the World Cup furnace could have been made. Instead, he turned up at the tournament with his chin hanging out but telling anyone who would listen he could take the punches. Perhaps a more centralised approach is called for, especially in World Cup years.

Not that it actually did the player any favours. A tried and tested route out of poor form with the ball in hand is some decent work without it, but that avenue has been shut down to Cooper this year. Instead, he was left isolated at the back on Sunday night and mercilessly targeted, surrounded by the mocking taunts of his former countrymen in the stands. Whether one finds him arrogant or misunderstood has no relevance to the rugby debate, but it was obvious to everyone from the Ireland game onwards that he was badly out of form. Assurances to the contrary started to reflect badly on those who issued them.

Already, calls have been made to review the coaching set-up and they are entirely justified. Now the third-place play-off game awaits against Wales on Friday and any effort to disregard it as a complete nonsense must be avoided. Every opportunity to restore the faith must be grasped, especially by those who have pulled the strings to such disappointing effect over the past four years. Progress has been questionable and the natives are restless.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/r...alian-rugby-20111018-1ltzd.html#ixzz1b5pqdxFR
 

Loki74

Ward Prentice (10)
Not sure I really rate this article. The positions he highlights - no.10 - ok Cooper had a bad start, but grew into it. Wouldn't say Cruden had a blinder and he was under less pressure given the way his forwards played. Fullback and tight head - well our best players in these positions are injured. So not fair to complain about lack of development when testing against the backups. Second row - Horwill had an ok game. Outplayed admittedly, but not disgraced. Will admit no.8 is a big weakness for us.

Plus the players he has highlighted for NZ - Dagg and Jane. Ok they had blinders. But they will have some shockers along the way as well. Is the nature of younger players as they come through.

Poor game plan is perhaps the real point. And an overhyped build up.
 
H

H...

Guest
the box kicks weren't that bad, the ABs runner blocking was just of a very very high standard. They made sure Digby just didn't get there without a lot of side stepping

What is important is the outcome, though. Whether it was the kick or the chaser or the AB tactics to neutralise it, it doesn't the matter. The point is that they weren't working, and Genia should have stopped doing it.
 
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